Author Topic: Whitlock steering squeak  (Read 7371 times)

MagicalArmchair

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Whitlock steering squeak
« on: May 31 2022, 22:46 »
I noticed a squeak coming from the binnacle crossing the Thames this week. Cable squeak? I have some PTFE grease I’ve been meaning to grease the cable with. Or is it too high up in the mechanism to be the cable needing greasing? The sqeak sounds like it is coming from the spigot of the wheel. I’ve recently had the drive on the auto pilot rebuilt so I’m pretty sure it isn’t that.

https://youtu.be/Z6pQRq9dm3g

Any thoughts?

Odysseus

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Re: Whitlock steering squeak
« Reply #1 on: June 01 2022, 08:32 »
Have still got the brake on?
The plastic cone in middle of wheel.

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MagicalArmchair

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Re: Whitlock steering squeak
« Reply #2 on: June 01 2022, 08:58 »
Nope, that is nice and free. I guess it might be binding on?

Yngmar

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Re: Whitlock steering squeak
« Reply #3 on: June 01 2022, 10:58 »
Might be the wheel axle bearings? I'd open up the binnacle and stick an ear in there to figure out where it's coming from. The chain won't really squeak, just get more rattly like a rusty bicycle chain :)

Oh, just remembered, on our boat the outer stainless steel fairing with the Whitlock logo (where the wheel axle exits the binnacle) wasn't well aligned and rubbing on the wheel axle. Check for that first - could be the simple cause. I filled the screw holes with epoxy and redrilled them in the correct place.

And just because the autopilot was rebuilt doesn't mean it's not squeaking  :kewl
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MagicalArmchair

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Re: Whitlock steering squeak
« Reply #4 on: June 01 2022, 22:10 »
Yngmar, I suspect you are correct re the drive unit...

We are heading back across the Thames tomorrow morning first thing, so I haven't had a chance to investigate properly, however, I did have five minutes during when the kids ate their breakfast today, and the squeak, I believe, comes from below... where the (rebuilt...) drive unit lives...

Thanks for posting, hope you are well. Where are you now??

MagicalArmchair

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Re: Whitlock steering squeak
« Reply #5 on: June 02 2022, 20:14 »
On the return journey the steering was feeling stiffer and stiffer - I was a bit worried it might lock the hell up. The squeaking got steadily more deafening as well.

We arrived safely after the 60 mile passage with just a bit of a headache to show. I was so convinced it was the drive unit I took it straight off, went to the binnacle, and smugly turned the wheel, expecting it to be free... and it wasn't. The squeak remained! The good news being that the drive unit is absolutely fine, the bad news being its something else.

https://youtu.be/njvxNfGv-gA

It sounds like it could be this pulley? Or the cable itself? Has anyone replaced the cables and conduit? Are there any good write ups?

I was keenly aware I have never tested my emergency tiller either - what's involved in using that in anger should the cables get messed up?

MagicalArmchair

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Re: Whitlock steering squeak
« Reply #6 on: June 03 2022, 15:44 »
We had a further investigation, and it appears to be the cable. Has anyone removed the cables and conduit?

I presume the first thing to do is remove the locking nut, and the retaining nut?


I'm guessing the black boots are where the cable is connected to the chain that the wheel drives?


And the conduit is removed by undoing the hex bolts though the black connectors? I presume I will need to drop the sheaves off also to free the cable. I'll need to do this anyway to service the sheave.


And the other end of the conduit is released here, under the binnacle? I presume the cable must be detached from the chain so the cable may be drawn down?


The squeak is easier to see in the below:
https://youtu.be/CP6gLG6nYV8

Yngmar

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Re: Whitlock steering squeak
« Reply #7 on: June 03 2022, 16:30 »
We just arrived in Sardinia, sadly broke our main furler on the way from Sicily  :-\

Under the black heatshrink are some clamps that form an eye which connects the cable to the chain.

The conduits are available from Lewmar. Replacing them and the cables should be straightforward as long as you get the lengths right.

But first I'd disconnect the cables on the quadrant (simply undo the nuts) and see if the stiffness is on the steering/cable side or on the rudder (which is most often the case - rudder bearings swollen or housing corroded and compressing the bearings). Might be the squeaking is just from overload.
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MagicalArmchair

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Re: Whitlock steering squeak
« Reply #8 on: June 03 2022, 17:34 »
Yikes, what broke? Was it the foil or the mechanism?

If it's the rudder, what's the prognosis? Is it a lift and drop off rudder job? Or will I make it through the season?

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Re: Whitlock steering squeak
« Reply #9 on: June 03 2022, 17:48 »
Check the rudder quadrant is not rubbing on the cable guide, mine did and the telltale was a sprinkle of ally dust under the guilty bit of the guide. Geoff

Yngmar

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Re: Whitlock steering squeak
« Reply #10 on: June 03 2022, 20:41 »
Yikes, what broke? Was it the foil or the mechanism?

If it's the rudder, what's the prognosis? Is it a lift and drop off rudder job? Or will I make it through the season?

Not sure if it's the foil or the tensioner.  We managed to furl the sail one last time but need to find a calm time to (hopefully) unfurl and drop it. Today we're just knackered :)

Find out if it's the rudder first - disconnect those wires. Then some people had success running vegetable oil into the lower bearing from inside (down the tube). Eventually the rudder will need dropping though and then you'll find out what the issue is.
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Odysseus

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Re: Whitlock steering squeak
« Reply #11 on: June 03 2022, 20:46 »
I have done that for years it works for me, I have put it on the site a good few year ago. Oil in the tube.

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MagicalArmchair

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Re: Whitlock steering squeak
« Reply #12 on: June 03 2022, 20:59 »
Thanks both, I found this image of yours Odysseus when trawling the forum.

Clearly the type of slippery stuff you put in there is important. Sticking something like engine oil or WD40 could cause the bearings to swell, or damage the tube couldn't it?

Spraying something like silicone lube down there? Low viscosity, so will run down, good on plastics, and safe on rubber? Or something else?

And yikes Yngmar, hopefully an easy fix once the mains down. I've just had all that in pieces and at least if its relatively easy to get to - hopefully nothing that will need you to drop the rig! Lots of wind contribute to the failure? Or just lots of sailing??


MagicalArmchair

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Re: Whitlock steering squeak
« Reply #13 on: June 05 2022, 18:12 »
I disconnected the cables, hoping it would still be stiff and creaky, alas not. With the cables off it’s free which means it’s the bearings or something wedged in there (weed?). I’ll put a camera down there next time I’m down to see.

MagicalArmchair

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Re: Whitlock steering squeak
« Reply #14 on: June 06 2022, 07:24 »
Question: When others have had bearings go stiff, has it been stiff on the full travel, or stiffer at certain parts of the travel? Mine is stiffer at the far extremities of travel, especially when steering to port, steering to stb it is still a little stiff, but not so much as steering to port.

Yngmar

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Re: Whitlock steering squeak
« Reply #15 on: June 06 2022, 16:03 »
Could be a cracked bearing ball. I assume you already ruled out any friction between quadrant and the frame that holds the turning blocks the quadrant runs in?

Tried the oil thing? Vegetable oil should be safe, or silicone oil (less friendly on the environment perhaps, but probably longer lasting).
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MagicalArmchair

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Re: Whitlock steering squeak
« Reply #16 on: June 06 2022, 19:44 »
I don't like the idea sticking oil down onto the bearings (could it make them swell and make the problem worse?). Also, being that the boat is in the water, surely it will just float above the bearings anyway? Unless I put enough in to displace the water I suppose and get down to the level of the bearings? See the below video with the steering cables off. It is too stiff and still squeaks.

https://youtu.be/3Qtr5kf-jQc

The bearings in situ, I believe, are this sort below. A fellow boat owner in the marina has a spare set of these to sell me (photographed), probably for around £100. The modern ones have needle bearings.



Clipper marine sent me pictures of these, these will cost a cool £650 delivered! But have the needle bearings. Hmm. That's a lot of boat credits for needle bearings.





Worth getting the better ones? £550 is a big difference...

The problem is almost certainly galvanic corrosion in the aluminum housing I think. The previous owner (oops, and me) antifouled right up to it, and Clipper reported you should leave a good inch around the aluminum of copper free antifouling.

Do we think the needle bearing version is worth the entra dosh? Is it worth trying that oil trick and to hell with the acetal taking in the oil?

Yngmar

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Re: Whitlock steering squeak
« Reply #17 on: June 06 2022, 20:05 »
You almost certainly only need to replace the lower bearing. The upper one stays nice and dry and doesn't complain. We have the needle bearing, which cost 240 EUR with express shipping from Denmark (in 2015, so before the great Brexaster). That's directly from Jefa, without paying middlemen to make up margins for themselves. Contact info@jefa.com

The needle bearing is superb and I can turn our wheel with my pinky finger. This also means the autopilot uses less power and there is generally less wear on all parts. Would recommend, at least at the above price :)

Our housing had some corrosion, which I cleaned up and filled the pits with epoxy, then stuck in a nylon wheel of appropriate size to fair it. Works well. We have Coppercoat on the hull, so I left a 5cm gap all around and use Velox Plus antifouling whenever I paint the prop and saildrive with it anyways.

Also, while you have the rudder down, check you have the Jefa recommended sealant around the top of the shaft where it enters the blade, to prevent water ingress. If not, drill drain hole to let water out of rudder (vacuum helps speed it up) and then apply bead of sealant. Jefa has a page on this somewhere.

Whatever you do, do not lay the rudder on its side when it's out, keep it standing up! Else the water inside will spread out and create osmosis from the inside. Don't ask how I know this  :P
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geoff

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Re: Whitlock steering squeak
« Reply #18 on: June 06 2022, 20:12 »
The noise in your video seems to be rather too close to be the bottom bearing, it sounds as if the quadrant is resting on the guide . Geoff

MagicalArmchair

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Re: Whitlock steering squeak
« Reply #19 on: June 06 2022, 22:14 »
Thanks Yngmar, I'll give Jefa a call tomorrow, they have ignored my previous email so I'll chase them and swallow the bill. This is the one chance I get to do the job, so I might as well do it properly. I'll pop down to the boat tomorrow and take lots of photos and put together a battle plan.

And thanks Geoff, see the below video where my little girl is helpfully turning the wheel (which is very stiff) from lock to lock and you can see there is clearance under the quadrant, so I'm afraid I really think it is that lower bearing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njvxNfGv-gA&t=10s

MagicalArmchair

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Re: Whitlock steering squeak
« Reply #20 on: June 07 2022, 17:43 »
It was a public holiday in Denmark, hence Jefa only got back to me today. I ordered both sets for half the price that I would have paid to Clipper.

The battle plan is below. Please shout me down if I have got something wrong; my questions and concerns (terrors!) are in bold and I would appreciate anyone's input.

  • On the berth, long before liftout day: Make sure all screws and fasteners move. The one below scares me the most! I presume this is the machine screw that stops the rudder retaining nut from spinning itself off? Stainless through ally? The classic combination... Like all screws on the boat, it is pretty mangled to start with. Question: How should I remove this? Apply loads of heat with a blowtorch first before I go near it? Then soak it in Plusgas for a few hours? Impact driver?
  • On lift out day (next Thursday): Lift out!
  • Once out of the water in the cradle: Remove the rudder position sensor. Question: Do I need to install it in EXACTLY the same position as I took it off? How do I mark it? I presume I'll need to take these jubilee clips right off and splay them apart?

  • Remove the Quadrant. Question: I presume this locates onto a key? Did I see Yngmar suggest I need to mark with a marker how high it sits?
  • Support the base of the rudder on some blocks, support the WEIGHT of the rudder too, else the top nut will not come off. 
  • Remove the locking screw (marked in green below) and use some kind of err, tool to spin the nut off. Question: What tool is the "correct" tool for this? Something like this? https://www.zoro.co.uk/shop/hand-tools/hooks-and-pins/adjustable-pin-spanner-vanadium-steel-245mm-length-20-100mm-jaw-capacity/p/ZT1005135X?

    • The rudder will now be "free", however, I'll likely need to wail on it with a club hammer (and a block of softwood to protect it) from above to get the sucker to drop down.
    • Once the rudder has dropped a few inches, I'll call the yard back, who will lift the boat off the rudder. Question: How do you support the rudder at this point? Beefy dudes under it, holding it? Or lash it to, err, a step ladder?
    • Get the old bearings out using a long lever to move them around, clean up the hole, grind off any nearby antifouling, paint with Trilux instead.
    • Question: How on earth do you locate the rudder when reattaching to the boat? Lift the boat up again I guess and slowly lower the boat onto the rudder? Eek, that sounds alarming and a good method for punching a hole in the bottom of the boat. I could put an M5 thread into this hole below and put an eyebolt on it to help winch it up? What is the below hole for??

       




symphony2

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Re: Whitlock steering squeak
« Reply #21 on: June 07 2022, 19:17 »
Look down the page at the other rudder thread and there is an explanation by tckearney of using the hole in the top if the stock when replacing the rudder

Yngmar

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Re: Whitlock steering squeak
« Reply #22 on: June 07 2022, 19:55 »
1. Top nut squeeze screw: Soak it in plusgas a day before. Then undo with screwdriver. Came out easily, although on the Ocean all the parts are stainless, not aluminium, which might've been why. The actual top nut was more difficult. Didn't have the right tool, but two screwdrivers stuck in the holes with a long lever between them did the job. Better to get the right tool though, doesn't cost much. Someone linked it somewhere around here recently.

3. Rudder position sensor: Jup, remove hose clips, remove sensor tang. No need to mark position, you wil need to recalibrate the center anyways afterwards. On reinstallation, with the rudder centered, the RPS should be approximately at center of travel too.

4. Quadrant: No need to mark, upon reassembly the frame dictates the height where it needs to sit (so it won't rub on top or bottom of frame). Yes, there is a key which you should try and not drop :)

The bolts that clamp it want some Plusgas prep too. I used the opportunity to alu etch prime and repaint the quadrant with black Hammerite, as ours was pretty yucky from a rusting Eberspaecher heater above it.

5-6. Rudder dropping: Make sure you have enough space under the boat for the whole length to come out. I think on the AC version this works? On the Ocean this is a real problem (because of the much longer shaft) and we had to use the travel lift to crank the boat as high as it goes to get the rudder post out and clear of the hull. Alternatively you can dig a hole, but the yard wasn't having it. Think your shaft is shorter and should clear the hull as is, but do measure (you have the rudder drawing).

Then just put a boatyard wood block and some wedges underneath, undo the nut and don't let the rudder fall. Yours is probably also much lighter with the aluminium shaft. Ours needed three burly guys to manhandle (in is trickier than out as it also needs to be aligned), but by then you'll have plenty of boatyard mates to help :)4

Old bearings: If they still turn, sure, you can try that. Most I've seen had to be cut out. Very carefully so as not to further damage the housing, make two cuts through one side of the ball where the housing is indented. Space them as wide as your favorite sharp wood chisel, then chisel out the plastic between the cuts. All very carefully. Once the ball is split, it'll come out easy.

Housing repair: I used International Watertite (underwater epoxy), because I had some leftover and it was great. Make sure you get it right and when you get the new bearing it goes in smoooooooth. Some idiot paid for another bearing because he didn't prep the housing well enough and it got stuck and had to be destructively removed. Ahem.  >:D

Reinstalling rudder: Definitely don't lower the boat onto the rudder. We just used the burly guys again, shoved the rudder into the boat, then used a lot of "starboard no the other way forward no back on your end yes up now hold it there!" and quickly spun the top nut on a few threads. Then wooden block + wedge again to lift it the rest of the way and tighten the top nut. Note that the top nut isn't necessarily tightened all the way.

Then hurry up with reattaching the quadrant and steering cables so you can be immediately launched into the water while you're already in the lift, without getting charged a second time for a travel lift movement, like some sad boatyard managers would otherwise do  :-X

Fine tuning you can do later, which involves centering the rudder with the emergency tiller, centering the wheel to match (by adjusting the bolts on the cable ends), making sure the rudder can still turn both extremes and is stopped by the quadrant frame and not the hull, setting up the quadrant height perfectly and reinstalling the rudder position sensor and recalibrating the autopilot.

Also, I've changed the large lip seal at the top of the tube around the shaft. Won't have that opportunity again soon, so might as well.

Good luck!
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geoff

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Re: Whitlock steering squeak
« Reply #23 on: June 07 2022, 20:15 »
The tool for the top nut is easy to make. two 12in lengths of steel with 8mm holes at each end. Bolt them together and then put an 8mm nut and bolt through the other end of each length of steel. most hardware shops sell 1mtr lengths of ready drilled steel bar for a couple of quid. Geoff

MagicalArmchair

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Re: Whitlock steering squeak
« Reply #24 on: June 07 2022, 20:37 »
Thank you for taking all that time to respond to my many, many (many) questions. That lip seal, where is it? Can I order it from Jefa at the same time as the bearings? There is nothing on the rudder drawing showing the lip seal?