Author Topic: Vibration in the rudder when driving under engine - Vision 42  (Read 6178 times)

Conralph

  • Second Mate
  • **
  • Posts: 35
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria Vison 42
  • Boat Year: 2015
There was this question before in 2016.

My steering wheels vibrate during the motor drive from about 1200 1 / min. Engine D2-55, with fixed pitch propeller and also with a Darglow 3 blade rotary wing propeller. During sailing no vibrations and also outside the water no play in the rudder bearing. The problem is from day one. After the entry from 2016, several vision seem to have this problem. I think a Cruiser 41, with similar configuration, did not have this problem.

Is there an idea about the cause?

Thanks Ralph

Symphony

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 1106
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria 33
  • Boat Year: 2015
The cause is the water flow from the propeller against the leading edge of the rudder. some boats have it and some don't. Often a change in type of propeller can reduce or eliminate it, but that does not seem to have happened with your boat. My 33 also has some vibration, whereas my earlier 37 did not, even though they used the same propeller.

As it seems common on your design of boat and not on others I doubt there is a cure.

JEN-et-ROSS

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 307
  • Karma: +3/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria 38 Lagoon
  • Boat Year: 1990
I take it you have a saildrive?
My guess is something is bent, possibly the prop drive shaft.
Many years ago we had a boat with a 50hp Suzuki outboard with a slightly bend shaft, just where it left the gearbox. you could motor about quite happily but when you opened it up to get 'on the plane', it would start to vibrate. I tried to straighten it but that proved to be impractical unless the gearbox was dismantled, so we just lived with it.....Bill

Clivert

  • Able Seaman
  • ****
  • Posts: 115
  • Karma: +2/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria 34
  • Boat Year: 2001
We have this on our 2001 34.
I have wondered whether a quarter turn on the rudder shaft nut might cure it

MarkTheBike

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 443
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • 34/2001 2cab
  • Boat Model: Bavaria 34
  • Boat Year: 2001
We have this on our 2001 34.
I have wondered whether a quarter turn on the rudder shaft nut might cure it

Same boat/year as yours, Clivert, with the same vibration (altho' motoring and sailing). Little or no lateral movement when lifted. A quarter turn on the nut fixed it, steering still smooth and easy. Worth trying.
ATB

Mark

Kibo

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 276
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Vision 46
  • Boat Year: 2014
Doesn't happen in my Vision 46 at cruising speed. There is some wheel shake/vibration when powering up to speed which I think is along the lines of what Symphony said, broken flow over the rudder, but it settles down when I stop accelerating and cruise at 2000 rpm or so.

I would vote for something either bent or shaft out of true/alignment. It could also be what Symphony said too but that speaks more to hull design than any fault that can be corrected.

The only time I had some weird vibration was when I picked up some sargassum and had to spin in reverse to get rid of it....
Ian
SV Kibo, 2014 Bavaria Vision 46

Conralph

  • Second Mate
  • **
  • Posts: 35
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria Vison 42
  • Boat Year: 2015
Sorry, if I do not understand everything.
The type of propeller:  I would rule out, since both show the same problem.

That something is bent, would also exclude, since it was a new ship and there is also another vision with the problem and others not.

Can the transmission from the rudder to the steering have an influence? Maybe the tension of the control cables?

Ralph

Symphony

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 1106
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria 33
  • Boat Year: 2015
It is not a bent shaft. Shafts in the saildrive don't bend!

It may well be some play in the steering mechanism and you can check this by turning the wheel and looking at the rudder shaft to see if there is any delay between the wheel moving and the rudder.

However as I said earlier the basic cause is water flow from the propeller over the leading edge of the rudder which causes the rudder to rotate slightly and transmit the movement into the steering system. It is very common and varies from boat to boat. On some boats it can be reduced by removing any looseness in the steering as described above, but I don't know whether that will work on your boat.

JEN-et-ROSS

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 307
  • Karma: +3/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria 38 Lagoon
  • Boat Year: 1990
It is not a bent shaft. Shafts in the saildrive don't bend!
Well, You didn't read my post in full as I succeeded in deforming a 50 hp outboard shaft. Not badly, but enough to be visibly obvious and cause vibration.
Not much difference between a saildrive leg and an outboard leg.
Believe me, clonk it off something hard enough under power and it'll easily cease to be straight, tends to also have a negative effect on the propeller.

tiger79

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 903
  • Karma: +9/-4
  • 2014 Cruiser 37
  • Boat Model: Cruiser 37
  • Boat Year: 2014

Well, You didn't read my post in full as I succeeded in deforming a 50 hp outboard shaft. Not badly, but enough to be visibly obvious and cause vibration.
Not much difference between a saildrive leg and an outboard leg.
Believe me, clonk it off something hard enough under power and it'll easily cease to be straight, tends to also have a negative effect on the propeller.

But saildrives don't protrude lower than the keel, so it's usually difficult to clonk something...

JEN-et-ROSS

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 307
  • Karma: +3/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria 38 Lagoon
  • Boat Year: 1990

Well, You didn't read my post in full as I succeeded in deforming a 50 hp outboard shaft. Not badly, but enough to be visibly obvious and cause vibration.
Not much difference between a saildrive leg and an outboard leg.
Believe me, clonk it off something hard enough under power and it'll easily cease to be straight, tends to also have a negative effect on the propeller.

But saildrives don't protrude lower than the keel, so it's usually difficult to clonk something...
Agreed. it's less likely but as I discovered it can be severely damaged if you do.

Symphony

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 1106
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria 33
  • Boat Year: 2015
I have seen a lot of saildrives that have hit something but have never seen a shaft bent. Plenty of damaged props, but the prop has a rubber bush which is, among other things designed to absorb shocks. Of course a damaged prop can cause vibrations but usually more through the engine than having an effect on the rudder. The OP has effectively eliminated the prop as it happens with two different props.

JEN-et-ROSS

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 307
  • Karma: +3/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria 38 Lagoon
  • Boat Year: 1990
I have seen a lot of saildrives that have hit something but have never seen a shaft bent. Plenty of damaged props, but the prop has a rubber bush which is, among other things designed to absorb shocks. Of course a damaged prop can cause vibrations but usually more through the engine than having an effect on the rudder. The OP has effectively eliminated the prop as it happens with two different props.
It was an innocent suggestion Symphony, something worth eliminating since it only occured at higher revs. and I, unlke yourself, have seen a bent shaft, damaged despite, as you correctly observed, the presence of a rubber bush......Bill

Salty

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 1216
  • Karma: +3/-1
  • Boat Model: Bavaria 36
  • Boat Year: 2002
Ralph,
You said in your initial posting that the problem you have goes back to day one, and that several “Visions” seem to have this problem.

There was this question before in 2016.

My steering wheels vibrate during the motor drive from about 1200 1 / min. Engine D2-55, with fixed pitch propeller and also with a Darglow 3 blade rotary wing propeller. During sailing no vibrations and also outside the water no play in the rudder bearing. The problem is from day one. After the entry from 2016, several vision seem to have this problem. I think a Cruiser 41, with similar configuration, did not have this problem.

Is there an idea about the cause?

Thanks Ralph

The Bavaria factory I understand is located in an entirely landlocked area such that all of their production gets sent out on the back of a special truck or trucks designed for the transportation of boats. In transporting those boats my guess is that the most vulnerable part of the exercise would be protecting the rudder from damage, assuming it was installed prior to transportation. Indeed, I think it would probably not be installed until arrival at the Bavaria main agents location, presumably somewhere in the north part of Germany in your case.
On arrival at the main agent, the boat would be hoisted off the truck and the rudder fitted while in the hoist by persons employed by the agent at the time, and it is that stage of the preparation which I believe to be the weak point, and where there is a real possibility that hurrying to get the job done before the boat gets wet may well be the source of your problem.
I know from what you have said that you think You have a bent prop shaft, but think about it. You say that several Visions have suffered the same problem, but for all of them to have bent shafts.......?  Sorry, absolutely no way is that possible, and how would it get bent before the boat was put into service for the problem you have experienced to be present from day one without you having done the damage? The saildrive would not be supplied with a bent shaft from new unless there was some careless handling, and then only to one or two saildrives at most before factory procedures were tightened up.
Symphony is right, saildrive shafts don’t get bent without something pretty catastrophic occurs, something which you would be very aware of at the time, in fact every bit as aware of as no doubt you were at the time when you “clonked” your outboard motor shaft. However, if there is looseness in the rudder bearing then the wash from the propeller will likely exacerbate the vibration to the point that you think it entirely caused by the engine rather than a sloppy rudder bearing.
I think you should look more closely at the suggestion put forward by Symphony, Mark and Clivert where following their suggestion would help to take up any slackness in the rudder bearing and thereby reduce or even remove the vibration completely. Also consider that some wear and settling in of the bearing system is likely to take place, and the adjustment suggested could very well remove the problem you are experiencing.

nightowle

  • Able Seaman
  • ****
  • Posts: 133
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • S/V In Deep - 1999 Bavaria 35E
  • Boat Model: 35 Exclusive
  • Boat Year: 1999
Re: Vibration in the rudder when driving under engine - Vision 42
« Reply #14 on: September 04 2018, 04:56 »
Interesting topic given that I have the exact same issue with my 1999 35E. I've only had the boat 18 months but immediately prior to my ownership the rudder, shaft and bearing were replaced by a competent yard using Jefa parts.  I'm not clear on what happened to the original rudder, but I believe the bearing was kaput and steering became difficult and caused some damage to the rudder.  Anyway, it makes sense to me that I should try tighten the bearing and see if that improves the "shakes" that we only get at higher speed.  Otherwise, I'm not too bothered by it.
S/V In Deep - 1999 Bavaria 35E
Seattle, WA USA

SaltyLass

  • Swab
  • Posts: 5
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • S/Y Salty Lass - 2003 Bav36
    • Sailing Yacht Salty Lass
  • Boat Model: Bavaria 36
  • Boat Year: 2003
Re: Vibration in the rudder when driving under engine - Vision 42
« Reply #15 on: September 05 2018, 12:48 »
I get this too, but I never noticed it until after a very gentle grounding on a sandbank. We heeled over about 5° as the tide reached LW and then started rising again and lifted us off after an hour. I suppose I was highly paranoid that damage had been done and that is when I noticed the vibration, but it might have been there all along.

We have since done the best part of 1,000nm criss-crossing the Irish Sea with no problems, but that slight shudder is still there

Alphadug

  • First Mate
  • ***
  • Posts: 56
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Vision 42
  • Boat Year: 2015
Re: Vibration in the rudder when driving under engine - Vision 42
« Reply #16 on: November 08 2021, 23:35 »
To add more to the intrigue. Last summer after anywhere from 1 to 8 hours motoring the steering would get stiff. In some cases you could barely turn the wheels. This would be accompanied by a lot of groaning (almost grinding) from the steering gear. Once we slowed down to moor it seemed fine. I can't notice any play in the rudder while stationary in the water. I'm hauling in the spring and wondering about pre-ordering the bearings/bushings. Where would I get these for a 2015 Vision 42 in Canada?

Thanks, Doug

Ronald

  • First Mate
  • ***
  • Posts: 50
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Vision 42
  • Boat Year: 2018
Re: Vibration in the rudder when driving under engine - Vision 42
« Reply #17 on: November 09 2021, 11:53 »
Interesting, I never saw this topic , but my V42 does the same

Equipped with a gori prop ( which I blamed for it.)

Wonder if there is someone with the V42 with the Volvo folding prop.
As I had that one on my previous boat a V40 and that one only showed that behaviour when accelerating.
Ronald

Markus

  • First Mate
  • ***
  • Posts: 76
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vibration in the rudder when driving under engine - Vision 42
« Reply #18 on: November 10 2021, 05:58 »

The Bavaria factory I understand is located in an entirely landlocked area such that all of their production gets sent out on the back of a special truck or trucks designed for the transportation of boats. In transporting those boats my guess is that the most vulnerable part of the exercise would be protecting the rudder from damage, assuming it was installed prior to transportation. Indeed, I think it would probably not be installed until arrival at the Bavaria main agents location, presumably somewhere in the north part of Germany in your case.
On arrival at the main agent, the boat would be hoisted off the truck and the rudder fitted while in the hoist by persons employed by the agent at the time, and it is that stage of the preparation which I believe to be the weak point, and where there is a real possibility that hurrying to get the job done before the boat gets wet may well be the source of your problem.
I know from what you have said that you think You have a bent prop shaft, but think about it. You say that several Visions have suffered the same problem, but for all of them to have bent shafts.......?  Sorry, absolutely no way is that possible, and how would it get bent before the boat was put into service for the problem you have experienced to be present from day one without you having done the damage? The saildrive would not be supplied with a bent shaft from new unless there was some careless handling, and then only to one or two saildrives at most before factory procedures were tightened up.

Bavaria factory has a test tank for boats and rudders are factory installed. For example: https://youtu.be/j1fM11rlZvo?t=619

Alphadug

  • First Mate
  • ***
  • Posts: 56
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Vision 42
  • Boat Year: 2015
Re: Vibration in the rudder when driving under engine - Vision 42
« Reply #19 on: November 15 2021, 20:58 »
Where do I find the rudder nut that is being referred to?

Thanks, Doug