Downwind Sail Plan

[Harry Brown]

I think it?s time to extend my sail wardrobe beyond just a main and headsail

I understand there is not one solution to fit all, but I really have no idea which way to go! Unfortunately, I know nothing about this subject. Was hoping you guys could advise, being Bavaria owners?

Asymmetric spinnaker, cruising chute, genneker or parasailor??

How do I go about sizing? Boat is a Bavaria 39 Cruiser and will have a crew of 3 including myself.

Also, what do I do about attachments? Should I fit a Bowsprit or would a ATN Tacker be sufficient?

Many thanks in advance for any advice, or for pointing me in the right direction!

[Kibo]

I have an assymetric spinnaker with bow sprit pole. I also have Selden torsion rope furling for it which I really like for ease of control and perfect for crew of three, cuts don on foredeck work since you can hoist it at the dock or at anchor before setting sail and simply unfurl it when you need.  I had an ATM tacker with sock furling previously on my Bav 42 and that was OK too if you don't want to spring for the extra cash for the sprit and furling system.

Ask a sailmaker for their options, check out Quantum website and you will see some good polar charts of kite size and wind angle for prelim research. You will find about 3 basic types which will do different wind angles (Tight reach, Beam Reach, Broad reach) and apparent wind speed ranges. If you want it for more downwind (Broad Reach) then get a more fully cut assym with longer luff and leech. Bear in mind that an assym will only really to about 140 -150 apparent before it collapses behind the main (you can alleviate this a little by reefing the main) so it is a Reach/Gybe/Reach journey if you are truly going dead down. Benefit of the roller furling is you can roll it in, gybe with no hassle, then roll it out again on the other board if you don't want to risk a full forestay wrapping drama (and if you're not racing why take the risk?!).

To furl the assym, turn the helm to head down, careful not to gybe....blanket the kite with the main so it starts to collapse then haul away on the furling lines which are lead back to the cockpit and it will roll up on the torsion line from the head downwards. Simples!

You could go for a full symmetrical spin or parasail but then you need full pole rig with sheets and guys which is not a big deal but adds a little complication for only 3 crew.

Hope that helps.

[Yngmar]

You didn't specify a budget, so let's go wild! 

A Gennaker is not really a downwind sail, it's for a beam reach, although the term is often used interchangeably with asymmetric (spinnaker). If you want to go dead downwind, a (symmetric) spinnaker will give you the best performance, although not easiest to handle short-handed. You can fly it freely without a pole, but that limits it to really just 180° and not much else. With a pole, it can be used at a wider range of angles, but not as far down as an asymmetric. Gybing a poled out spinnaker is not everyones idea of a fun time and can lead to bent poles and damaged relationships. A Parasailor is just a gimmicked out spinnaker that is a bit easier to handle and more forgiving (also pretty pricey and usually comes with a snuffer). It has a "tongue" that helps it fly and a gap that reduces the risk of broaching, as it basically lets some air out of the sail.

An asymmetric is probably the most popular option for cruisers at the moment, especially if flown on a retractable/removable bowsprit with a top-down furler. Very easy to handle that way. Also the most costly option. The sail is left on the flexible torsion rope and simply stuffed down the forehatch (top and bottom ends last), complete with the endless line furler and everything. To deploy it, attach a halyard at the top, the foot to the bowsprit and raise the whole sausage up, clip the furling line in and unfurl. A cheaper option than the top-down furler is the ATN tacker or a fitting somewhere on the bow ahead of the forestay, plus a snuffer. Slightly more difficult to gybe this way, and many prefer to snuff it, gybe and let it out again. With an asymmetric you typically don't sail dead downwind, but gybe downwind for maximum VMG.

And don't forget the old-fashioned option of simply poling out the Genoa (with a whisker pole, typically a bit shorter than the foot of the sail, but longer than a spinnaker pole, which is restricted in length because it must be able to dip under the forestay). The main goes out the other side with a preventer on, giving you a "barn doors" setup. I've played with this setup on my boat and found it working surprisingly well (my 2001 Bavaria has the older type rig, with large 150% Genoa - won't work as well on the newer blade jib rigs). As budget is an issue for me, I've decided to go with that, and am currently shopping for a telescoping pole (3.9 to 5.9m long or thereabouts).

You can try this setup for yourself without any further equipment in light airs, by steering dead downwind (helm must pay some attention here), gybing the main to the other side of the genoa (use a preventer!). The Genoa will stay filled on its own without a pole (see photo from my boat). You can then grab your telescoping boat hook and push out the clew of the Genoa to see what difference a pole would make (and work out how long yours ought to be - although measuring the foot of the sale will also give you an idea). Without a pole this cannot be left unattended, but with a pole the setup is much more stable. Performance at least on my boat was surprisingly good.

Finally there's the even older fashioned option of flying to Genoas/Jibs from a single or twin forestays. Haven't seen this setup in a while, but it used to be all the rage in the days of Susan and Eric Hiscock

[Neil]

I also have a Bavaria 39 cruiser and sail with 3 up or less. I have no experience with downwind sails on my boat but have a lot of experience on other boats.

If you go down the asymmetric route there are a few points to note:
1. As mentioned above you cannot sail downwind, in fact 130 degrees is about as deep as you can go, and the deeper you go the more difficult it is to manage
2. On sizing it depends on what wind speed you expect to sail in most of the time. They have a fairly narrow operating range which is why racing boats can carry 3 or 4
3. In breezy or squally conditions they can be a real handful
4. The helm and sheet trimmer work as a team to fly the thing properly
5. You will need deep pockets and a needle and thread as you will stuff it, rip it and possibly tear it to pieces in the water
6. You don't need a pole, so can be easier and quicker to set with fewer crew
7. They are a lot of fun and can look really cool, for maximum fun sail overpowered and hang on (note number 4 above)
8. MOB drills are an important consideration

Enjoy

[Harry Brown]

Thanks very much for all the replies.

I contacted Quantum and they suggested a ?A3? cut that would be the best to cover most situations combined with a Snuffer.

So really I have to decide how to attached it. I don?t want the expense of a furler for now, I might add one later when I have had some experience with them.
So I suppose it?s really do I go with an ATN Tacker or the retractable/removable bowsprit Bow Sprit.
How does the Bow Spirt attach i.e. holes to drill? What too? Do I need any additional brackets to what comes with the Sprit?

I've decided to go with that, and am currently shopping for a telescoping pole (3.9 to 5.9m long or thereabouts).

I am interested in the telescopic whisker pole, have you had any luck sourcing one as yet? I take it this is attached via a bracket to the mast?

Thanks again.

[Yngmar]

I am interested in the telescopic whisker pole, have you had any luck sourcing one as yet? I take it this is attached via a bracket to the mast?

Selden makes a nice one that would work on my boat as either whisker or spi pole (telescoped in it is rated for higher strength than in whisker mode), as do Forespar - theirs being extendable with a control line, which is even nicer. Both are very pricey though (£750 for Selden, more for Forespar). So I'm hoping to find a used one somewhere.

There's a big eye on my mast already, opposite the gooseneck. Or you can spend another half a grand on a fancy track system that lets you stow the thing on the mast. The advantage of telescoping ones is that they shrink enough to be fairly easily stowed on the rail, so the mast track is pure luxury (and makes setting it up a bit safer, but actually more complicated).

[Harry Brown]

Thanks for that.

I've just watched some videos and I can see how this could be the way to go!
It would also be a lot cheaper that an Asymmetric, tacker etc and easier to stow too.
Hmmm, decisions decisions!

[Harry Brown]

There's a big eye on my mast already, opposite the gooseneck.

Do you know what. I've never even had a look what is on the front of my mast! (see picture)
Never had to use it so never gave it a second thought!
I'm embarrassed to ask, but what is this used for exactly? 
Is this the track system you are referring to?
Could I incorporate it into a pole or would this system be better suited to something else?

[Kibo]

Harry. Here are some photos of my boat. Shows the pole for the tack. It moves from forward to aft on pad eyes which attach to the aft end of the pole. This photo shows it retracted, when I use it I just move the aft end of the pole to the next pad eye forward. The forward end of the bow pole goes through a ring mounted on the prow. This is a Vision 46 so my genoa furling is below the deck. Yours might attach to the anchor roller perhaps. I also give you photos of my spin pole/whisker pole.  I don't use that on the assym though more for the genoa

My advice is asymmetric with ATN tacker and snuffer for your first downwind set up. No drillers no holes and easy to use. You can upgrade to bowsprit pole and furling easily later without loosing my too much in investment.

[Kibo]

Oh and , yes, that's a spinnaker pole track. Lucky man they are not cheap I just put a fixed ring on after being quoted over 1500US to fit one !

[Yngmar]

Do you know what. I've never even had a look what is on the front of my mast! (see picture)
Never had to use it so never gave it a second thought!
I'm embarrassed to ask, but what is this used for exactly? 
Is this the track system you are referring to?
Could I incorporate it into a pole or would this system be better suited to something else?

Yup, that looks like a pole track. It wouldn't be there unless there was a pole too - where did it go?

You just need a pole to attach to it then. The rear end goes on the car, and is hauled up the mast when not used until the forward end (now the bottom) can be clipped on the mast, stowing the pole vertically forward of the mast. To deploy, simply unclip the bottom and lower the car until the pole is at the desired level. Additional benefit is that this level is adjustable. Downside is that you have one more control line, but you won't have to manhandle a free swinging pole, one end is always attached to the mast.

I have the same eye as Kibo on my mast.

[sy_Anniina]

Adding one more option for retractable bowsprit: A fixed walk-on bowsprit / dolphin striker, see my image

Pros: Adds bow length - sometimes helpful when approaching tricky piers with shallow approach - often helpful when attaching bow to rocks in non-tidal area.
Takes the asymm tack far away from pushpit.

Cons: Adds bow length - some marinas and dock consider this as added LOA. Installation requires drilling some holes to hull.

In my sailing area (Northern Baltic) this is piece of equipment is essential for me - I would imagine it would be useful in Mediterranean as well.

[Harry Brown]

Yup, that looks like a pole track. It wouldn't be there unless there was a pole too - where did it go?

No idea where it is. It didn't come with the boat and I don't think the previous owner had one or he would have mentioned it.
He was pretty good with everything else.

Thanks for all the other advice. As usual, I'm a bit overwhelmed with all the different possibilities!

[dawntreader]

Just when you think it has all been covered, someone comes up with a new idea !

see this: http://www.deckchute.com/about-deckchute

[Yngmar]

Just when you think it has all been covered, someone comes up with a new idea !

see this: http://www.deckchute.com/about-deckchute

That's pretty common on small racing cats (e.g. Hobie - the chute is mounted under the bowsprit there). It is very efficient on those and super easy to operate, not to mention fast. Haven't seen one for yachts yet though, looks interesting.

[Kibo]

I had one on my first Mirror Dinghy back in the 70's. I think the Melges 24 and 32 also have them as an option too. Not sure I'd want one on  my liveaboard boat but good for round the cans racing ...

[Craig]

I'm interested in fitting a retractable bow sprit but I am a bit confused about some of the previous photos.

I was advised to NOT attach the forward end of the bow sprit to the deck as it is not attached strongly enough to the hull and may rip out in a strong wind.

I was advised to attach the forward end to the forestay, as it is securely attached to the reinforcing in the bow.

I can see that Kibo's arrangement is different to my 2010 Bav 38 Cruiser, so was wondering what others thought of this, or the advice I have received that the forward end should be attached to the forestay.

Hoping to fly an asymmetric with a sock.

Craig
"Shirley Valentine"
Gold Coast
Australia.

[dawntreader]

I'm interested in fitting a retractable bow sprit but I am a bit confused about some of the previous photos.

I was advised to NOT attach the forward end of the bow sprit to the deck as it is not attached strongly enough to the hull and may rip out in a strong wind.

I was advised to attach the forward end to the forestay, as it is securely attached to the reinforcing in the bow.

I can see that Kibo's arrangement is different to my 2010 Bav 38 Cruiser, so was wondering what others thought of this, or the advice I have received that the forward end should be attached to the forestay.

Hoping to fly an asymmetric with a sock.

Craig,
The information you have received is correct about deck fixing. In the attached photos you will see where many fit their Selden rings to the forestay anchor steelwork for the retractable bowsprits (as I have done). The first is before fitting, the second is after.

[Kibo]

Thanks for the comments   My pole was fitted by Sekden and there are already built in string points where the padeyes are on the deck specifically for that purpose. The foreword end ring is also on a strong point with backing plate so I am not concerned about the strength in this area since I can get underneath there to reinforce. On the V46 I cannot fit to the forestay since the attachment point is below deck level

[Craig]

Dawntreader's comments are in accordance with the advice I have received.

My 2010 Bav 38 also has "strong" points in the deck with aluminium reinforcing for a deck fit. This aluminium plate is not attached to the hull mould and, what I am concerned about, is that there is no strengthening of the hull/deck join.

On the Bav 38s, the problem is not the fitting pulling out of the deck but the deck lifting from the hull mould.

Kibo's setup appears to be different to my setup. I am not sure what I would do in kibo's case.

[Eye Candy]

Hi everyone,
My wife and I cruise a Bav 39C.  In light airs downwind we pole out the 140% genoa to windward (partly furled) and set the furling genacker to leeward but lead the sheet through the boom end then drop the main altogether.  This gives a very deep rig and ability to sail "by the lee" some 20 degrees.  The boom-end sheeting makes the rig very stable and faster than with the main blanketing the genacker.  We use it up to 15 knots true wind and its easy to furl either or both sails if the wind gets up.
Cheers
Andrew

[Kibo]

Thanks Craig. I understand your concern better now. My boat is indeed much different than a cruiser in the very forward part of the deck area. I am not too concerned about deck to hull joint separation in that area on my boat at the very prow but if it was any further aft I would share your concerns.

Out of interest are there any other post 2013 Vision owners who have fitted a pole such as we are discussing?  I'd be interested in any comments or suggestions in case of needed modifications to my setup

Thanks in advance