Author Topic: Rudder - Sensitivity (Read 7815 times)

dawntreader · « **on:** October 28 2016, 15:29 »

I changed both rudder bearings on my B37 [2006] two years ago. The rudder is working fine and I regularly check and tighten the top locknut if necessary so that there is no noticeable vertical play in the rudder. However, the rudder is very sensitive to horizontal movement and transfers this to the wheel. Now she is out of the water again I can wiggle the rudder gently with my finger and thumb and this slight movement is transferred directly to the wheel.

I don't want to over-tighten the rudder so does anyone have an idea of how tight the locknut should be turned? or is my setup 'normal'?

Harry Brown · « **Reply #1 on:** October 28 2016, 18:52 »

I would say that is exactly as you want it really. Shows absolutely no wear in the steering components.

dawntreader · « **Reply #2 on:** October 28 2016, 19:24 »

OK, thanks Harry, good point. I am probably asking: could it be dampened to make give it a more solid feel? The wheel rattles like mad sometimes $:-\$

Harry Brown · « **Reply #3 on:** October 28 2016, 20:29 »

I don't know if it is designed to be used whilst sailing, but on mine, the plastic knob at the centre of the helm wheel acts as an adjustable friction brake when tightened.
Again, I'm not sure if it should be used when sailing or just used as a complete rudder brake whilst tied up.
Anyone?

patprice · « **Reply #4 on:** October 29 2016, 01:00 »

Brake only I think. Mine does not work at all! Does nothing!

dawntreader · « **Reply #5 on:** October 29 2016, 08:47 »

Quote from: Harry Brown on October 28 2016, 20:29

I don't know if it is designed to be used whilst sailing, but on mine, the plastic knob at the centre of the helm wheel acts as an adjustable friction brake when tightened.
Again, I'm not sure if it should be used when sailing or just used as a complete rudder brake whilst tied up.
Anyone?

This should only be used for restricting rudder movement whilst at anchor. Taking this further it looks like using a 'damper' is probably of no practical use and I will let my rudder move as freely as it wants

$:-\$

Yngmar · « **Reply #6 on:** October 29 2016, 09:58 »

I've never seen these wheel spinner brakes do much of anything, on any boat (although haven't tried on brand new ones - maybe they just wear out quickly?). They're definitely the wrong approach in this situation anyways, as the vibration is generated at the rudder, and trying to dampen it at the other end (the wheel) would simply cause the rest of the system (quadrant, cables, chain, etc.) to absorb them, to its detriment.

Best to figure out why your rudder is vibrating. Assuming you checked for horizontal play in the bearings, despite recent replacement? Is the rudder smooth or did it have significant fouling or damage affecting the shape? Is the GRP detaching from the tangs (put the rudder hard over into the quadrant stops, then push it from outside the boat - it should not give further out past either stop).

dawntreader · « **Reply #7 on:** October 29 2016, 14:56 »

Quote from: Yngmar on October 29 2016, 09:58

I've never seen these wheel spinner brakes do much of anything, on any boat (although haven't tried on brand new ones - maybe they just wear out quickly?). They're definitely the wrong approach in this situation anyways, as the vibration is generated at the rudder, and trying to dampen it at the other end (the wheel) would simply cause the rest of the system (quadrant, cables, chain, etc.) to absorb them, to its detriment.

Best to figure out why your rudder is vibrating. Assuming you checked for horizontal play in the bearings, despite recent replacement? Is the rudder smooth or did it have significant fouling or damage affecting the shape? Is the GRP detaching from the tangs (put the rudder hard over into the quadrant stops, then push it from outside the boat - it should not give further out past either stop).

Thanks for the input Yngmar. The rudder is rock solid for horizontal and vertical play - it is just super-sensitive. The construction is sound with no splits/cracks either. The slightest touch or wiggle on the body of the rudder is transferred directly to the wheel so that shows that there is no play in the steering mechanism in general. I expect the 'flutter' I get at speed is due to the water vortex from the keel passing through the water.

Kibo · « **Reply #8 on:** October 29 2016, 15:17 »

Quote from: Yngmar on October 29 2016, 09:58

I've never seen these wheel spinner brakes do much of anything, on any boat (although haven't tried on brand new ones - maybe they just wear out quickly?).

Bit off original topic but both my wheel brakes work very well. I tighten them up when at anchor with rudder amidships and they hold the rudder in place as the boat swings. Maybe they work better in pairs on twin wheels? Not sure I would anchor without them working for too long since the wheels spin rapidly back and forth without them causing wear, noise and, most importantly, much irritation during the sundowner G+T !

Harry Brown · « **Reply #9 on:** October 29 2016, 16:25 »

Quote from: Kibo on October 29 2016, 15:17

I've never seen these wheel spinner brakes do much of anything, on any boat (although haven't tried on brand new ones - maybe they just wear out quickly?).

Bit off original topic but both my wheel brakes work very well. I tighten them up when at anchor with rudder amidships and they hold the rudder in place as the boat swings.

Just for info, my single wheel brake works very well also.

Salty · « **Reply #10 on:** October 29 2016, 22:10 »

From a posting I made some time back on another thread similar to this one:-

"What you need is the piece which fits between the end of the push rod attached to the spinner in the middle of your wheel, and the brake mechanism. This I understand is called a "Brake Slug," and is nothing to do with one of those slimy little critters that some birds enjoy eating. I contacted a Lewmar agent for one that I needed for my B36(2002), but the length of the slug he suggested I needed did not match up with measurements I'd taken, so I declined their offer and made one up from a piece of 8mm stainless rod that I had. First I checked the length of the hole inside the steering spindle and then deducted the length of the push rod attached to the spinner to determine how long the slug needed to be. If you intend to make one up for it yourself, it's worthwhile making it significantly longer so that you can shorten it later for any error in measurement. It's important to ensure that the slug you make is a reasonably sloppy fit into the spindle as you don't want it to get jammed in place, also don't put any grease on it until you are sure it is the right length. Once the slug is inside the spindle you will need to be able to retrieve it until you are sure of the right length. To retrieve it I used an 8mm disc cut from some double sided sticky tape which I stuck to the end of the push rod. I then screwed the spinner up until it was in contact with the new slug, and when unscrewed the slug came out attached to the end of the push rod (that's why it needs to be a sloppy fit and free from grease !!).
My boat has been ashore since I made and fitted the slug, so while it seems to work a treat, it won't be until after launching in April (2016) before I can check that it is exactly right. It does however appear to be just the same shape as the one that Lewmar offered, except it is the right size unless of course there was something else missing from within the steering assembly."

Since making the above posting, another season has passed, and I can confirm that my home made "Brake Slug" has worked a treat.
In regard to wear between metal components in direct contact with each other, whilst I hear the argument, I don't think it particularly relevant. In my opinion the brake slug acts rather like a hand brake on a car, in that it's not used to slow anything down as such and which in such circumstance could cause wear, but it is intended to stop something from moving. Now if the wheel does not move due to the brake slug having been tightened properly, what is going to cause wear?

patprice · « **Reply #11 on:** October 29 2016, 23:26 »

Salty....Do you recall how long the slug you made is? Did the old slug get replaced or did you make up a short slug that makes up for the wear on the old slug?
Thanks

Salty · « **Reply #12 on:** October 30 2016, 06:30 »

Hi Pat,
The original slug was missing so that the brake did not work at all, and I had no idea exactly why the system didn't work. So while at the Southampton boat show I went to the Lewmar stand and asked questions about it. The person I spoke to said it was most likely that the brake slug was missing, so I ordered one. When it was received I tried it, but what was sent out was not long enough to do the job, and was sent back. I did, and still do wonder, if the spinner and the attached push rod that is on my boat was the one originally supplied. My boat used to go out on charter, and that continued for a short period after I bought it until I discovered just how badly some charters treated the boat and just how little support the charter firm gave me. Amongst other things, equipment from my boat would dissappear and stuff from the other boats in the fleet ended up onboard mine, and it was rarely an equal exchange. So it's quite possible that parts of the steering mechanism might not be original. That aside, and as mentioned in my earlier posting I measured the depth of the hole in the centre of the spindle, subtracted the length of the push rod, added on a bit for adjustment and cut it from a length of 8mm stainless rod. I don't remember offhand what length the slug eventually turned out to be, and I did have to adjust it slightly. I don't think it would be helpful for me to tell you what length the slug I made turned out to be as your set up might not be the same as mine and it certainly was not the same as the Lewmar chap sent out. A piece of thin wooden dowel or something similar can be used to measure the depth of the hole, but figuring out how much of the pushrod actually enters the hole is not so easy, and hence the bit for "adjustment."

Yngmar · « **Reply #13 on:** October 30 2016, 11:15 »

Thanks Salty, that may very well be the case on my boat and many of the others I've seen those non-working brakes on - sounds like a bit that would easily fall out and go down a cockpit drain

I'll have to investigate!

Kibo · « **Reply #14 on:** October 30 2016, 12:16 »

Maybe my wheel locks aren't the same but I don't have any separate loose slugs as described above. There is a loose key fitting to ensure wheel alignment on the shaft but the brake spinner is all in one piece. I have Lewmar wheels..... I will be on our boat from Nov 16 for a few months so will check it out too.

Salty · « **Reply #15 on:** October 30 2016, 12:36 »

Quote from: Kibo on October 30 2016, 12:16

Maybe my wheel locks aren't the same but I don't have any separate loose slugs as described above. There is a loose key fitting to ensure wheel alignment on the shaft but the brake spinner is all in one piece. I have Lewmar wheels..... I will be on our boat from Nov 16 for a few months so will check it out too.

Yes, I didn't have a loose slug either, it was completely missing !! And because it was missing, operation of the brake spinner did nothing. So unless the push rod coming out of the centre of your spinner pushes up against something when the spinner is tightened, then it's odds on that something is missing. Suggest you measure the depth of the hole in the spindle to determine whether the push rod can actually apply pressure to anything when it's tightened. Mine didn't, so it didn't work.

Kibo · « **Reply #16 on:** October 30 2016, 16:35 »

Thanks Salty. My spinner brakes work fine as they are so I think the design is different

patprice · « **Reply #17 on:** October 30 2016, 23:47 »

Quote from: Salty on October 30 2016, 06:30

Hi Pat,
The original slug was missing so that the brake did not work at all, and I had no idea exactly why the system didn't work. So while at the Southampton boat show I went to the Lewmar stand and asked questions about it. The person I spoke to said it was most likely that the brake slug was missing, so I ordered one. When it was received I tried it, but what was sent out was not long enough to do the job, and was sent back. I did, and still do wonder, if the spinner and the attached push rod that is on my boat was the one originally supplied. My boat used to go out on charter, and that continued for a short period after I bought it until I discovered just how badly some charters treated the boat and just how little support the charter firm gave me. Amongst other things, equipment from my boat would dissappear and stuff from the other boats in the fleet ended up onboard mine, and it was rarely an equal exchange. So it's quite possible that parts of the steering mechanism might not be original. That aside, and as mentioned in my earlier posting I measured the depth of the hole in the centre of the spindle, subtracted the length of the push rod, added on a bit for adjustment and cut it from a length of 8mm stainless rod. I don't remember offhand what length the slug eventually turned out to be, and I did have to adjust it slightly. I don't think it would be helpful for me to tell you what length the slug I made turned out to be as your set up might not be the same as mine and it certainly was not the same as the Lewmar chap sent out. A piece of thin wooden dowel or something similar can be used to measure the depth of the hole, but figuring out how much of the pushrod actually enters the hole is not so easy, and hence the bit for "adjustment."

Thanks Salty. Not a problem. My B42 is in Greece, I am in Hobart for the southern summer, waiting patiently for it to arrive. Last night F 7 and cold. I will take back to greece next year a 100mm piece of 8mm dia 316 SS rod or a suitable bolt shank that should do the job.

My boat too is ex charter and I do get the impression that there has been a sharing of equipment between boats. Also, and I hope this is not general, but some maintenance personnel in the charter industry are totally focused on getting the yacht ready for the next charter (ie next day) and some maintenance work reflects this! Having said that Penelope is in pretty good shape for a 16 year old ex charter vessel.

Nigel · « **Reply #18 on:** October 31 2016, 13:06 »

The wheel brake slugs are impossible to detect if they are working. I'd like to find a way to remove mine for cleaning, no luck so far.

MarkTheBike · « **Reply #19 on:** October 31 2016, 14:11 »

Quote from: Nigel on October 31 2016, 13:06

The wheel brake slugs are impossible to detect if they are working. I'd like to find a way to remove mine for cleaning, no luck so far.

VERY small dab of quick-set Araldite on the end of a wooden rod. Leave it to set. Pull out slug. Easy to clean off afterwards. My wheel brake works fine but used at home on similar problem with old motorbike.

Kibo · « **Reply #20 on:** October 31 2016, 15:44 »

So I get it now: the slugs will be wedged in deep and the spinner simply tightens up on them... Hopefully mine stay there since I don't have any need to take my wheels off and on. Thanks for the clarification !

Quote from: Nigel on October 31 2016, 13:06

The wheel brake slugs are impossible to detect if they are working. I'd like to find a way to remove mine for cleaning, no luck so far.

Salty · « **Reply #21 on:** October 31 2016, 21:40 »

Quote from: Kibo on October 31 2016, 15:44

So I get it now: the slugs will be wedged in deep and the spinner simply tightens up on them...

Apart from the "WEDGED IN" bit which they shouldn't be, more a nice easy slide in fit with a dab of grease, then yes the spinner simply tightens up on them and the wheel becomes locked and prevents the rudder from moving. Unless you unscrew the spinner, take the steering system apart and tip the spindle up on end to allow the slug to slide out, it should stay put. Alternatively you could remove it and lose it, but that's a different matter.
In regard to this happening on charter boats, I suspect that the removal of the slug or brake system on those boats that don't use the same system, may be more to do with the charter managers requirements rather than any accidental loss.