Discussion: Passing the torch or shutting down

[Yngmar]

Discussion thread for https://bavariayacht.org/forum/index.php/topic,4394.msg27754.html

[tiger79]

I reckon I'll be speaking for all of us if I say a big thank you to you, Yngmar, for keeping this forum alive for so long.  It's not an easy job and, as you've said, the legal aspects are becoming onerous. 

So if the forum closes, well we've had a good run, exchanged a lot of knowledge, and enhanced our ownership experience.

[JEN-et-ROSS]

Very sad indeed....
But I can totally understand the commitment involved in running a form like this......
And as such, I'm sure all on this forum appreciate the effort you've ( and your predecessor) put in to keep things up and  running...
I've just read through the new "legislation" and can't see how a bunch of mostly elderly blokes swapping tips and information on their passion for sailing and boats could possibly be a threat to anyone....
But, I agree, this will be the end of most forums, as the risk of having to face a court case at some point would put most folk off...
But I do hope some brave individual with the necessary IT and legal skills is willing to take it on, possibly involving an annual membership fee.....
If not, Lets have whip-round of all the active members to cover your costs...
Again, Many thanks Yngmar.......................

[Happysailor]

Hi Yngmar,

It is indeed very sad these beautifull initiatives and great wealth of experiences is no longer feasible as a hobby. As you have stated clearly, it is going beyond what can be regarded as something to do "on the side".

All good things come to an end... Thank you very much Yngmar, for all your efforts to keep the forum running and your decision is fully understood!

Great sailings!

[Ailatan]

Dear Yngmar, first of all thank you very much for your time and dedication.
I understand completely all your reasons but, at the same time, I think that it's a pity that all the information already shared and the help that this forum may provide in the future to many Bavaria owners will be lost, so I would like to share a few ideas to see if there is still any options.
1) Can Bavaria trademark help you with the legal, technical and economical part of the problem? I have no doubt that this forum is an asset for the brand.
2) I have no idea, but there are likely companies dedicated to managing all of the legal and technical aspects of the forums. If so, we could consider sharing the cost among the users.
Sorry just a quick thoughts because I'm shocked.

[Odysseus]

I am also sad the site is going, I do sympathise with you as I helped run the scanmar site for years, a lot of work....its a pitty there is not a cold storage available to download the site to.

Thank you for your efforts.

Odysseus
Bav 38 for 25 years.

[Ailatan]

I keep on thinking of alternatives.

Is it possible to move to another platform like Facebook or Instagram easier to handle and maybe with less legal restrictions?

[sy_Anniina]

....
1) Can Bavaria trademark help you with the legal, technical and economical part of the problem? I have no doubt that this forum is an asset for the brand.
2) I have no idea, but there are likely companies dedicated to managing all of the legal and technical aspects of the forums. If so, we could consider sharing the cost among the users.
....

Based on this I think we should look broader for alternatives - I have no knowledge on any of the hosting or legal topics, but topics raising in my mind

• Extending on Ailatan's forst topic - how other brand-specific forums operate? Are manufacturers involved? e.g. myhanse.com
• Any marketing professionals among us? I believe this forum would have true added value for Bavaria brand - how to formulate a "sales pitch" to Bavaria marketing for them to adopt this forum while maintaining autonomy?
• Can some existing generic boating-sailing forums host brand-specific lanes? ybw.com? forums.sailboatowners.com seems to already have some brand-specific lanes, even one for Bavaria

Any other ideas around (or even against) these?

mega-thanks to Yngmar for hosting this forum this far - I understand fully there is time to pass the torch

BR,
Tommi - s/y Anniina

[JEN-et-ROSS]

Would it be possible in the interim to form a 'private' forum among the existing members...?
Surely in that form it wouldn't be covered by the new rules..?
If so, there'd be no hosting fees, trolls, bots etc..
Unfortunately there also would be no new members, nor would the forum be a public source of info..
But it might let us continue in a limited way until we see how the ''new legislation' pans out..........
Or am I just being naive....?

[Ailatan]

Shouldn't we move this topic to the Bavaria Help! part of the forum.
Honestly, I jumped into the Scuttlebutt and realised of the problem by mistake. There may be other users in the same situation.

[Pawelg]

What are overall yearly costs of hosting, domains and cert?

If UK becomes so problematic, why can't it be hosted in a different country?

[Yngmar]

Thanks for the kind words. To answer a few questions that have come up:

The forums aren't hosted in the UK but it doesn't matter, as the legislation lays claim to UK users, irrelevant where the servers may be. A theoretical solution would be to block all UK IP addresses, but this is flawed and may still expose me, personally, to ridiculous legal claims. So even Geo-IP blocking is no use, not to mention it'd be quite a hindrance to a large part of our userbase.

But lets not get into amateur legal discussions here, as that can go on forever with no productive outcome. Unless you're a UK lawyer specializing in these matters and have some good advice on the problem!

I have no special connection to Bavaria the company. If they were interested in running an owners forum, they'd have one. However, it wouldn't be the same, as it would be in the hands of their marketing department and thus not an independent place for open discussion.

There probably already is a Facebook group for Bavaria owners, I wouldn't know, I worked in IT and had a client collaborating with Facebook and thus know better than to have an account there. If it's not finally become apparent in the recent past, those companies are not your friends.

Sure, it would be possible to found a company and make this into a commercial undertaking, but that would mean either paid membership or cluttering everything up with dumb advertising, and I have no interest in either, nor the time for it, plus hopefully everyone is blocking ads anyways!

Your best bet is probably resorting to the forums at YBW.com, although I'm not sure how they are planning to deal with this legislation, I wouldn't be surprised if they're making their own announcement in the near future.

Making the forums private would exclude all future members from seeking help with their boat problems. We'd just dwindle away slowly.

[sy_Anniina]

Just one piece of information I found out: myhanse.com seems to be hosted by the Hanse UK distributor, but keeping the discussion still independent and allowing open discussion, including critical opinions.

Does anyone out here know if Clipper Marine would be interested in taking ownership of this forum - while maintaining the independent, open discussion?

BR,

Tommi - s/y Anniina

[IslandAlchemy]

Dear Yngmar (and others).

I did mention this to you years ago, and it might now be the right time for it.

Why not pass the forum over to the BOA? Their own forum is not working anyway, and they have now made it free to use without you needing to be a BOA member, so they could simply replace their forum with this one (after all, Nigel only created this one in the first place because he didn't like that the BOA one with only available to members.  They have insurances and RYA membership in-place, so can deal with the potential future issues.

I am happy to make the necessary introductions if you would like to consider taking this route.

Bob.

[Pawelg]

Dear Yngmar (and others).

I did mention this to you years ago, and it might now be the right time for it.

Why not pass the forum over to the BOA? Their own forum is not working anyway, and they have now made it free to use without you needing to be a BOA member, so they could simply replace their forum with this one (after all, Nigel only created this one in the first place because he didn't like that the BOA one with only available to members.  They have insurances and RYA membership in-place, so can deal with the potential future issues.

I am happy to make the necessary introductions if you would like to consider taking this route.

Bob.

It sounds like a great idea. The very valuable content would stay, the spammers would be removed and necessary founding hopefully would be cover by the BOA fees.

[Yngmar]

Why not pass the forum over to the BOA? Their own forum is not working anyway, and they have now made it free to use without you needing to be a BOA member, so they could simply replace their forum with this one (after all, Nigel only created this one in the first place because he didn't like that the BOA one with only available to members.  They have insurances and RYA membership in-place, so can deal with the potential future issues.

If their forum is not working anyways, how can they run another one? And what is their plan for fulfilling all the labour intensive nonsense Ofcom demands?

I have no problem with passing an archive backup of our forum over to the BOA if they want to host it (it'd only run on the same software though, or require major conversion efforts on their end), but obviously I am not going to do it for them, as that is a lot of extra work I do not have time for. But there should at least be a plan for dealing with the actual problem.

[IslandAlchemy]

Having now looked at the new rules, I see your point.

I can't see any small organisations keeping their forums going with this lot hanging over them.

The end of an era I guess.

[MCBav42]

Hi Yngmar, It will be sad to lose Nigel's legacy and all your hard work on the forum. Could we call for financial contributions from existing members and run as a closed forum for the paying members until the law is updated to fix the unintended consequences? I would certainly be happy to pay to keep access to the existing information (even if no further posts were allowed). I am certain many others would do the same.

[Stevie H]

I would be very happy to support such an approach

[Yngmar]

Taking the forum private doesn't help from my understanding (I'm no lawyer and do not wish to become one).

Blocking all UK based IP addresses is an approach taken by at least one other community, but may not be sufficient, plus requires constant updating of blocking lists.

Others have already shut down, or deleted their forums (in cases where forums were just part of a site).

If you're in the UK (I'm not), you should probably demonstrate against this law.

I've had offers of donations (still welcome to make up the deficit) and hosting, but if nobody wants to take over the project as a whole (meaning running it and also taking the blame if some crazed UK government agency comes for you), it will be shut down. I simply cannot accept the personal risk to me or my family.

[Samoerai]

Hi Yngmar,

as March is getting close, what are your feelings on handing the forum over?

[Yngmar]

Nobody credible has come forward with a serious offer to take over the whole thing, so it will still be shut down. I'll do a final backup before that. I hope to get a read-only archive up and running eventually, so our collected wisdom isn't lost.

Of course there's nothing stopping anyone from simply starting a new Bavaria Owners forum. If they do, I'd be happy to redirect there from here. Or maybe the BOA forums can be made available free of charge.

[mibbal]

Dear Yngmar, All

I would like to offer my help with supporting this forum. I can take over whole project, or just take care of technical part (+ domain ownership) and keep moderation with Yngmar owner or someone else who would like to.

[Samoerai]

Hi Mibbal,

I've already discussed such a solution with Yngmar. It seems he doesn't want to have any involvement as it would be a too great a personal risk as a volunteer for him. I am involved in several fora, so I do have an idea what it takes to run one. I think we should create a small team (starting with us two?) to manage the site completely. We thus can offer him to take over all tasks so he can step down.

Having a read-only archive would be a good and a bad thing. It will keep all the knowledge alive. But, as it is already very good populated in the search engines, it would make it for a new forum very difficult to create momentum.