Author Topic: Battery upgrade  (Read 3360 times)

Club 56

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Battery upgrade
« on: November 22 2020, 23:44 »
2013 Vision 42

Currently running with 3 x 150 AH house batteries AGM.
Getting to the point in their life that they aren't keeping up with current demands, mainly on board refrigeration/freezer setup.
We intend to do our Australian east coast cruise over the next 2 years and will need good refrigeration the further north we go.

Thinking seriously of going down the Lithium path when replaced. My main concern is the charging sysytem. Standard Cristec CPS3.
Cristec advise the fitted charger should be OK if set to lead acid charging profile.
Alternator on the D2-55 is again standard OE from Volvo, 115 amp.
Also 2 x100 watt flexible solar panels on binimy, Also looking at replacing these with a better quality unit. Made in good old China, not one of our best buys!
Has anyone upgraded to lithium and left standard charging system inplace, hows it going? Also any comments on flexible panel brands.

Cheers
Club 56

SYJetzt

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Re: Battery upgrade
« Reply #1 on: November 23 2020, 07:59 »
On our B46/2005 we dropped the 2x140Ah Lead-acid and fitted 400Ah Lifepo4.
Kept the alternator (VP D2-75F, 115Amp) unchanged, but dropped the diode-bridge and replaced it with a 70A B2B charger (adaptable for Lifepo).
Fitted 2x 300W fixed solar (Hyundai) on stern arch with a Victron charger, because we didn't trust the flexible ones.
This system covers our daily demand of 180 - 200Ah per day without running the engine or needing a mains-plug, while we are cruising the med as long term sailors with a lot of beer in 2 fridges ;D.
Key for such a change is, that you adapt your charger(s) to the exact needs of your Lifepo's, because all Lifepos are slightly different in their charging voltage and behaviour. At least you should have one charging source on which you can adjust the charging parameters exact for what your Lifepo needs (this is done in our system by the Victron charger, which has a highly customizable output). Adjusting our chargers was a pretty long way, but now it works perfect. Keep in mind, that an improper setup of the chargers could kill your Lifepos, which could be a very pricey mistake.


 

fjoe

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Re: Battery upgrade
« Reply #2 on: November 24 2020, 00:33 »
The charge acceptance of a LiIon-battery is dimensions higher than this of an (aged) PbAcid-battery. LiIon takes it all.
A BMS is mandatory for Li-systems! Li FePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) is needed for the required voltage level of the consumers.
And be aware, that a LiIon-battery is protecting itself: In the case of a problem, e.g. cell short circuit,  the BMS will and must cut off the battery to avoid further heavy reactions. A Lead-Acid battery is protecting the system and can deliver still some energy after one cell has a problem.
An additional small PbA-battery could deliver the energy for emergency cases.

There is a report about 5 years experience with LiIon on board in best German: http://bobbyschenk.de/n006/lithium1.html
Perhaps Google may help to translate or a direct contact via the e-mail adress.

Best regards
Frank

ANTREVELL

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Re: Battery upgrade
« Reply #3 on: November 26 2020, 20:14 »
Dear SYjetz

We are  considering replacing our 4 - 110a lead acid domestic batteries with 2x 200 lithium batteries . Our boat is a 2014 Cruiser 33 with I assume the usual setup we have a  starter battery and a bow thruster battery which are both lead acid . We have a 110amp alternator on the Volvo sail drive . I am led to understand standard procedure was to install a box which connects to the output of the alternator which then monitored the domestic bank , bow thruster starter batteries and charges accordingly .

I installed a unit I think by sterling that supposedly charged the batteries to a higher level .It was debated on this forum whether it was necessary because of the modern alternator fitted on the engine .   I also have a 100watt solar panel and wind generator connected to the domestic bank and controlled by a Marlec controller . I have this  winter also  installed a 360watt solar panel controlled by an  mppt controller which is also connected to the domestic bank.

My question is do you still have the starter and bow thruster lead acid batteries or did you change them to lithium.
I have read you should not leave the lithium batteries fully charged or fully discharged for long periods I would be grateful for your comments .

Regards Tony Revell

symphony2

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Re: Battery upgrade
« Reply #4 on: November 26 2020, 23:38 »
Are you sure your batteries are lead acid? My 2015 boat has all AGMs, one for start in the cockpit locker, 3 in the saloon for domestics and one in the forecabin for the bow thruster. All 95AH  AGMs of the type that are fitted to cars with stop start systems, where the requirement is for fast recharge.

The Volvo alternator charges at a higher voltage than the old style alternators and the Cristec charge splitter is low voltage loss so there is no need for the Sterling booster which was designed to boost the charge voltage of older style alternators to charge low acceptance lead acid batteries more quickly.

On a more general point, not sure why one would need 400AH capacity on a 33 in UK waters unless you run heavy consumers such as electric kettles, hair driers, microwaves etc through an inverter. Very different if you are living aboard in the Med (or other hot climates) and want to be self sufficient for long periods at anchor (ie not running the engine or hooking up to shorepower) when it makes sense to have larger capacity and alternative charging such as solar. But in "normal" UK use of weekends and a couple of longer cruises each year, 400AH is overkill.

Suggest before you go down the expensive and complicated lithium route you do a usage audit to establish your daily requirements. Remember, you can ignore the need to charge your start and thruster battery as these are almost always fully charged by the engine after you start or use the thruster. So you are only looking at fridge, instruments, autopilot, radio, maybe radar and interior lights. Fit a battery monitor as this will make it much easier to keep track of your usage.

Just to give you an idea of usage patterns, Typically I go away for 2/3 days at a time maybe 5 times a year and never go into marinas and day sail perhaps 30 days a year. In the 5 years I have had the boat I have never seen the batteries fall below 50%. I only plug into shorepower at base if the standing voltage falls below 12.7v, and that happens perhaps twice a year. The boat is afloat all year round, but I tend now not to use it between November and March. I fully charged the batteries in mid October and they are still fully charged. Expect to have to plug in to shorepower in January to bring them back up to full charge. Longer term I expect them to last at least 10 years at the current usage pattern.

ANTREVELL

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Re: Battery upgrade
« Reply #5 on: November 27 2020, 08:35 »
Hi Symphony

When we bought the boat new we had 2-  70a agm  domestic plus starter and bow thruster. These were not sufficient . Changed them to 3 sealed lead acid but with frige and navigation equipment  and autohelm the domestic still dropped so increased 3 batteries to 4 domestic . I do have a Nasa batt monitor and still find over a weekend the batteries will drop to 12.4 or less. We have a Rutland wind gen and 200w of solar but the reality of that is probably less than 200watts  . Over covid I have now added an arch and fitted a 360watt panel. batteries now show 14.7 when I go to the boat but soon drop to around 12,7 when I have all the LED cabin lights on. Not sure how accurate the Nasa is,
The batteries  are now 4 years old so I guess they will need changing soon , Which is why I thought I would go the lithium route .
It doesn't sound to complicated to change
 
Regards Tony Revell

symphony2

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Re: Battery upgrade
« Reply #6 on: November 27 2020, 19:07 »
Can quite see why 140 AH is inadequate to run the fridge and navigation gear plus lights (and nav lights if night sailing). In UK summer conditions a fridge draws around 4 amps while running, and runs typically for 20-25% of the time, so 24AH, navigation including autopilot is around 5-6 amps, so a day sail another 50AH+, so already over half nominal capacity. Add on other usage such as lights, radio etc of say 10AH and you could well see a voltage of below 12.4v the next morning. An hour motoring will put back between 10-20AH, depending on how well charged the battery was at the start. A day at anchor with nav turned off, but still running the fridge will use probably 35-40AH leading to a flat battery.

If one wants to continue using power like this then the two main things to consider are increasing the usable capacity and increasing the amount of charge. The first is the simplest - doubling the capacity is relatively easy and cheap and then running the engine under load at the start and end of each passage. The latter not only charges the battery but gives you hot water and is good for the engine as running under load (at say 2000rpm/5knots) reduces the chances of the exhaust elbow coking up.

Based on those estimates above around 150AH usable capacity to aim at. The question then is how to achieve that. The three broad choices are lead acid, AGM and now lithium. LA is the cheapest, but in the cheaper bracket of leisure batteries - 2*140s are around £300 but have shorter life, slower recharge rate and higher self discharge rates than AGMs. 3* 95AH such as Exide EK950 cost around £390. Lithium's advantages are based mainly on greater discharge cycle life and deeper discharge so you can greater usable capacity for lower nominal capacity and 2*100AH will give comparable usable capacity to the 3 AGMs plus roughly double the number of cycles and therefore life - but at a cost, currently around around £900 - or nearly 3 times the cost of AGMs.

As I described earlier my boat has 3*AGMs and more than copes with typical UK cruising patterns. Annual discharge cycles are somewhere between 30 and 50, hence my estimate of a 10+year life. As a slight aside, I have a Red Flash 28AH AGM in my Morgan which I bought new in 2003. It is still in use. If I leave the car unused for more than a couple of weeks I plug in the special charger so it is always fully charged. I expect the start and thruster batteries in the boat to last at least as long as this.

Because I have shorepower I don't bother with solar as I just use the mains charger if the battery voltage falls to 12.7v when I get back from a trip, so all batteries are almost always near fully charged when the boat is not in use. However, if my sailing pattern changed and I wanted to spend more days/nights at anchor, a solar panel would help make up for the loss in charge from not running the engine. I really don't think lithium is the way to go as you can't use the benefits sufficiently to justify the substantially higher price. It is different if, like some members here you rely on the 12v supply for continuous heavy use, such as liveaboard  when the ability to get greater usable capacity in a given space and a usage pattern that will fully use the extended cycling capacity.

Hope this helps

ANTREVELL

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Re: Battery upgrade
« Reply #7 on: November 27 2020, 22:00 »
Is a sealed lead acid the same as agm .   Have you any experience of gel batteries

symphony2

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Re: Battery upgrade
« Reply #8 on: November 27 2020, 23:00 »
Both AGMs and Gel are sealed - that is they are valve regulated rather than open. Gel hold the acid in a gel rather than glass mat. Tend to have longer life because of greater cycle life. However do not like high currents so not suitable for engine start or thrusters. Typically 40% more expensive than AGMs such as the Exide one. The latter have dropped in price significantly in the last few years because of the volume increases from the automotive market. No direct experience of gel, but if you are more in the high usage category such as liveaboards with a long term view worth considering.

Worth looking at www.batteryuniversity.com for a detailed explanation of different types of batteries and pros and cons

SYJetzt

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Re: Battery upgrade
« Reply #9 on: November 30 2020, 14:21 »
Sorry for the late answer!

My question is do you still have the starter and bow thruster lead acid batteries or did you change them to lithium.
I have read you should not leave the lithium batteries fully charged or fully discharged for long periods I would be grateful for your comments .

Regards Tony Revell

I left both unchanged. They are sealed LA Batteries and simple, cheap standard.
Starter battery is charged with standard alternator without any changes. B2B Charger 70 Amp from Starter Battery to House bank (Lithium), triggered by D+-Signal from alternator. So the B2B-charger only works, if engine is running.
Another B2B Charger 30Amps from House-bank to Bowthruster battery.
It doesn't matter, which charging state the lithium battery for long term storage has. Due to the small self discharge current of the lithiums i only get them topped up to minimum 50% when leaving the boat. This seems pretty sufficient to get over the winter time, if all other consumers are switched off (due to safety reasons i don't let my solar switched on over the winter).

I agree with symphony concerning the selection of power sources and -storages. If you don't have such a high energy demand as on our boat and don't need to deal with longer offgrid times, lithium seems pretty expensive.
In our case i'm really satisfied with our solution, which allows power hungry appliances like our 3000W Inverter and brings a lot of comfort on the boat. This was impossible with our LA-batteries. 
Time will show the real lifetime of our battery system, which should be a lot more than  LA or AGM batteries.

blue bear

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Re: Battery upgrade
« Reply #10 on: December 01 2020, 21:20 »
I was at the same crossroads. Looked into LiFePo and almost pulled the trigger on that solution. I decided on the Firefly batteries, mainly due to ease of installation and no other systems or charge controllers to upgrade. Dropped 3x L15 in place, which fit perfectly, although just barely. This was a big relief that no mods were needed to the battery compartment. So bottom line is 3x 4v 450Ah firefly (in series) replaced 2x 12v 150Ah standard lead acid. A huge upgrade in capacity. Very pleased with these batteries so far, they work as advertised. I will probably stay with them long term.

https://coastalclimatecontrol.com/index.php/batteries/agm-firefly-sps-northstar.html#!/Firefly-Oasis-VRLA-2v-4v-marine-battery/p/109012903/category=25823701