Mid 2000s Bavaria 50 - Info Please

[Tspringer]

I have been actively searching for a 3 cabin cruising sailboat for full time liveaboard and cruising. I have looked at Beneteau 473s and some other boats but so far after 6 months of active searching I have not found the right boat.

Having viewed some early to mid 2000s Bavarias on Yachtworld, I am very intrigued. I love the layout of the Cruiser 50 and the pre-2006 Bavaria 50  (I am not sure of which model was made in which years - tough to find details).

I have been trying to research these boats but have not been able to find many details. I am interested in construction details and methods and overall strength and reliability. We are not planning to round Cape Horn but I want a boat I can trade wind sail distances without having it fall apart!

Any pre - 2008 Bavaria 50 owners out there willing to share their experience? What should I look for? Negatives? Positives? 

Thanks!

[IslandAlchemy]

I have a 2003 Bavaria 49.  We've had it from new (so we know it well).

It has done an atlantic circuit and been used as a charter boat for 8 years, and is holding up well.

The boat is solidly built with no known issues.  I have had no problems with the hull and superstructure, keel, or rudder. They are all very well made.

The only real issues I've had (apart from ususal wear & tear) is with 3rd party components (such as windows & hatches) which are the sae as fitted to most other makes of boat.

The boat spent 8 years in the Caribbean, and the UV got to the boat a bit, resulting in a number of leaks from deck fittings where the sealant had deteriorated, but no big deal to remove and re-seal them.

It is a very well balanced boat with the big genoa doing most of the work.  In anything over 15kts, we tend to just sail on the genoa only (especially upwind), as the boat goes just a quickly and points just as well, and tacks perfectly well, without having to put the main up (which is nice because you can sail the boat entirely from the cockpit.

She will sail at about 8 knots upwind, and up to 12kts downwind without feeling over-pressed.  Nice light steering, very responsive, and good balance, without feeling skittish.  Doesn't slam very much.

Try to get one with the lead keel if you can as it gives that little bit extra, but it's not a deal-breaker.

We've just done a complete re-fit on ours and are going cruising again on it next year as liveaboards (med and caribbean again).  This is what they are designed for.

Hope that helps

Bob

[Symphony]

The larger Bavarias were designed for exactly what you are looking for. There are many variations of the 46/47 & 49/50 as Bavaria tended to make small changes every couple of years as they were building large numbers of boats in that period. However they are all essentially the same boats in terms of hull design and construction. They were very popular as charter boats when new and many were based in the Med in the summer then sailed across the Atlantic for the winter season.

As to reliability as already mentioned the basic Bavaria structure stands up well to this kind of use and the main issues are related to externally sourced items, most of which come from well established suppliers so spares etc are usually easy to source. These are generic to all models (and other makes of boat) and you can get a flavour of what to expect from the Breakdown survey thread at the top of this page.

The most important thing when buying a boat of this age is condition, plus maybe level of equipment. Most boats will be well equipped for offshore cruising but original things like electronics may be nearing the end of their life and sails getting tired. Many boats will also have been used for charter work so will have high mileages and if original high engine hours. This is not necessarily a bad thing but look for good records of maintenance. A survey by somebody who knows the boats is a good idea. However be prepared for some expenditure post purchase as often boats are for sale because the owner sees big bills coming up and wants to avoid them! This is true of just about all boats of this age which is why they are so relatively cheap compared with new boats of similar size.

Good luck with your search and don't think you will be disappointed if you choose a Bavaria.

[Tspringer]

THANK YOU for the replies - greatly appreciated and helpful.

The last sailboat I owned was a 1981 S&S designed Stevens 47. That boat was a tank. Very long story made stupid short but sailing the Stevens to Wilmington NC form St. Thomas direct, 9 days out we got caught by a massive northeaster when we were about 400 miles off Cape Canaveral. We diverted to Jacksonville but not before the storm hit. Consistent 45kts with gusts to 60 out of the northeast when crossing the gulfstream. Seas were 15'-18' and ugly. Fuel tanks intake clogged - no power. We sailed into Jacksonville at night in huge winds and no engine with driving rain preventing any visibililty - GPS was key. Anyway - through it all the boat did not care and gave zero issues. Would the Bavaria have done as well? I don't know. I also DO know that I hope to NEVER be in that situation again!

Some questions about how these Bavarias are built:    (relative to Bavaria 49 or 50 from 1999 to 2007)

- Are the through hulls and seacocks bronze or brass or plastic?
- Are the opening ports and portlights plastic or metal?
- Is the rudder stock stainless steel, aluminium or GRP?
- How is the rudder bearing designed and constructed?
- How is the hull to deck joint constructed?   (I did see a youtube video from Bavaria that showed it glued and then screwed - bolts would seem better)
- How robust is the hull where the keel is bolted on?
- Is the deck hardware and sailing gear sized well?

How can you tell if the keel is lead or cast iron?

Did construction quality and gear change over different production years?  Would a 1999 Bavaria 50 be considered better or worse construction than say a 2007?

Here are several boats I am interested in. I hope to see the first 2 within the next week.

1. 2003 Bavaria 49.  Asking $149,900
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2003/bavaria-owners-tri-cabin-3536638/?refSource=standard%20listing


2. 1999 Bavaria 50.  Asking $174,999
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1999/bavaria-50-3211384/?refSource=standard%20listing

3. 2007 Bavaria Cruisers 50.  Asking $125,000
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2007/bavaria-bavaria-50-3500621/?refSource=standard%20listing


The '03 has a generator. The '99 has a watermaker and upgrades. The 2007 seems fairly basic in gear but is newer - but is also in Martinique which presents logistical issues.

Anyway - educated opinions are greatly appreciated. Trying to learn about these boats is difficult. So many sailing or cruising forums are crazy negative about any production boat and Bavaria in particular sure seems to get bashed often. Yet the company has stayed around and made tens of thousands of boats. I cannot find reports of hundreds of them mysteriously sinking so they cannot be as bad as most forums posts would suggest.

Is a 1999 perhaps a better built boat than a 2007?

Thanks!!!!


Terry

[Symphony]

To answer your basic questions.

The seacocks are originally brass, although that is almost universal for mass production boats of that age in Europe (and many high grade boats like HRs!). Despite all the stories you hear there is not a high rate of failure - literally hundreds of thousands are in use without problems. However many owners do replace them, usually with DZR brass (dezincification resistant) which are in general as good as the much more expensive bronze. In the last few years Tru Design plastic valves and fittings from New Zealand have become popular as they are just about a straight replacement for the original metal fittings. Certainly an area to look at, although it is usually not the valve itself that dezincifies but the fittings, particularly the hose tail. They should not be bonded to an anode system.

The hatches vary from year to year, and some are metal framed and some plastic. Most common supplier is Lewmar and spares/replacements for most sizes are available. Gebo hatches were also used and for a short while (2000-2002) Rutgerson, but I think most of those were replaced under warranty (on my 2001 boat by Gebo).

Rudder stock is aluminium and usually trouble free. It is advisable not to use copper based antifouling in the immediate area around the exit of the rudder stock from the hull.

The bearings are acetal and the lower one is a self aligning spherical two part bearing in a housing pressed into the hull. Again these are usually trouble free but if they wear or more likely seize are relatively easy to replace. There are youtube videos covering replacement. Jefa in Denmark have a lot of information about Bavaria rudders and bearings on their website and can supply replacement parts.

You are correct about the hull deck joint although it does not give problems in itself, but like many boats leaks can occur around the through deck fittings such as stanchion bases. The sealant underneath the teak capping on the boats you are looking at can also fail, but the process of repair has been well covered on this site. Most other deck fittings are attached by screws into bonded in aluminium plates.

The hull construction uses a bonded in hull grid in the keel area, just like most other boats of the type. Like most deep fin keeled boats damage can occur through grounding so be careful when looking at boats sailed in shallow or rocky tidal waters. Easy way to tell if the keel is lead by scraping away some paint! The seller should be able to tell you as it is an extra selling feature and get your surveyor to confirm.

Most deck gear is well sized and from major suppliers such as Lewmar, Selden, Harken, Rutgerson. The rig is a Selden fractional, and many of the boats you will look at will have in mast furling. This is well proven and once you have got used to it and it is well maintained gives no problems.

There is little variation year to year of this generation of boats. They were all designed by the same people and built in the same semi automated factory. The changes year to year were mostly minor or cosmetic and in my experience they were usually for the better although sometimes not so good. So you have to assess each boat on its merits,

Hope this helps

[Yngmar]

How can you tell if the keel is lead or cast iron?

With a magnet.

The deck/hull joint is glued, screwed and bolted (depending on which version toerail your boat has - this has changed several times - all three boats you listed have the through-bolted fittings). The sealant wasn't applied well on ours (gaps) and I've redone one side this winter and will do the other next.

Deck hardware, winches, rope organisers etc are sized appropriately (the rig is designed by Seldén) and of good quality (Rutgerson, Harken, Seldén/Furlex).

Our rudder stock is duplex stainless steel, but that may well be an Ocean series upgrade if others have aluminium.

The hull is cored with closed cell Airex foam above the waterline and solid GRP laminate in varying thickness below. The bow section is reinforced with woven Kevlar and very sturdy (we got rammed by a catamaran's bowsprit in that area once and all it did was scratch our logo a bit).

The deck has the same foam core in areas. There's a non-structural inner deck moulding.

Bulkheads are good marine ply, resting on sealant and tabbed on with fibreglass.

Tanks are HDPE and generally last well, although fittings can sometimes be a source of trouble.

Furniture is held together by electroplated screws which is a deadly sin that someone should go to hell for. Nothing is falling apart, but they've all rusted and will reliably snap off if you need to undo any.

Otherwise interior joinery is of very good quality and the varnish lasts a long time. The synthetic laminate floorboards last forever.

Access to engineering spaces, cabling, pipes etc. is very good compared to most other brands.

Bow roller could be stronger, but that's a widespread problem on most boats except for aluminium ones

[Salty]

Electric cables as fitted by the builder on many of the boats if not all, used ordinary copper wire rather than tinned copper, and it is likely the cables will have some degree of corrosion throughout their entire length, particularly on older boats. This can be a source of trouble on smaller sized wires such as those used for lighting, and on control circuits used to determine, for example, the direction your windlass or bow thruster will run, but is one shared by other boat builders that also used plain copper wires.

[IslandAlchemy]

Out of the 3 boat you have listed, I would pick the 2007 every time.

It has the nicest interior and a more modern engine.  It also just looks less beaten-up.

Both the others look like they've had a bit of a hard life.

Even if it cost you $25k to get it back, it's still the best value one.

[Salty]

Out of the 3 boat you have listed, I would pick the 2007 every time.

It has the nicest interior and a more modern engine.  It also just looks less beaten-up.

Both the others look like they've had a bit of a hard life.

Even if it cost you $25k to get it back, it's still the best value one.

For sure the 2007 boat appears to be one hell of a lot of boat for the money. So I would be wanting to know why the most modern of the three boats was up for sale at considerably less money than is being asked for the two significantly older boats??
 
Perhaps the answer has something to do with the reason why it was found necessary to have the hull wrapped with vinyl fairly recently.

Has the boat suffered some kind of hull damage which even though it might have been repaired, it couldn’t be completely hidden without the vinyl wrap, and now the owner wants to sell the boat as soon as possible ?

[Symphony]

That is the problem with buying used boats. They all have different pros and cons - and the dilemma worsens when you actually view them. The later 2007 boat does look a bargain particularly if you like the newer interior style. It also has a saildrive of the latest type. However it is short on gear for long distance cruising compared with the other two. The lower price could either reflect underlying repair damage or the extra cost of getting it to the US paying any duty and taxes.

Like any other purchase decisions best to draw up your list of essential, desirable and inconsequential features and assess each against that, bearing in mind how you intend to use the boat. The bottom line is what it costs to get a boat fitted out as you want it in the location you want to use it. Inevitably there are compromises along the way, but in my experience you tend to get a gut feeling about the "right" boat when you see it.

[Tspringer]

Again - thanks for all the replies!

I will be looking at the '03 49' on Tuesday.

The '07 in Martinique I did learn that the boat has not had damage or such but am still trying to get more details - so far without much luck. Trying to buy a boat in the Caribbean is extremely difficult (I have tried twice before without luck and did buy my previous boat in St. John). It is crazy how things work down there. Many of the boats advertised for sale in the Caribbean are ghosts - not actually for sale or likely just non-existent and marketed to try and generate leads for other boats. Brokers you contact about an advertised boat frequently do not respond at all or promise more details soon and then vanish. One boat advertised on St. Lucia I learned was actually in Spain, I was about to purchase flight tickets when I got this little update. You get the idea. The combination of "Island Time" and cheap rum make for real problems trying to buy a boat.

The Martinique boat is certainly short on much of the gear I would want, but the gear on the others is not new. I am a hands on sort of guy and totally rebuilt my old Stevens 47, I do prefer to pick and add my own gear. I do everything myself, even put a new Yanmar in my last boat. So costs for updating is not as bad when you don't have to budget the labor for it.

There is another Bavaria '50 listed in Panama - repeated emails to the listing on Yachtworld have elicited no response at all. LOL

I swear - looking at some of the listings for boats in Europe and their prices, if someone were to bring those boats to the Bahamas and then properly market them I think they would get double the cost of getting the boat there!

Terry

[SYJetzt]

Why not purchase a ex-charter boat in europe?
Purchased mine (B46/2005) for less then half the price of the featured ones in your post. Replaced engine, sails and standing rigging, and now everything is fine.
Of course, the charter time left its traces, but there is nothing substantial lacking. 
Keep in mind, that you can check the boat in one or two charter weeks with diligence. Usually the advertised boats are available after charter season in autumn, so there is plenty of time to get it to the carribean for the best season.

Good luck
Robert

[kayastah]

Tspringer, did you pull the trigger and purchase a Bavaria 50?
I’m in a similar situation as you. Have been sailing a 1982 C&C Landfall 48 for 15 years and now strongly considering a mid-2000’s Bavaria 50. Would appreciate your insights since your old Stevens and our C&C are very similar.