Crazed Portlights and Hatches

[Twhitt]

Hi, we have a B38 Holiday from year 2000. It has Gebo hatches and ports, and all are well crazed, maybe due to Mediterranean sun?

I am looking to replace them all, and have a catalogue from Gebo of hatches and replacement acrylic supplied to Bavaria.

Back out to boat next month, so will check sizes and get prices. They also provide a service where you can send them the accrylics and they will replace including moving over all fittings. Probably OK if you only have one to replace but not ten!

[Yngmar]

Hi, we have a B38 Holiday from year 2000. It has Gebo hatches and ports, and all are well crazed, maybe due to Mediterranean sun?

Incidentally we've just had a charter B44 come in next to us here in Sicily. Must've been built within a year of our boat and has the same Gebo deck hatches as ours. Ours are fine, while theirs are crazed really badly.

So I think the key here is the much greater UV exposure, as this boat looks to have spent its life being chartered around here. Perhaps some exterior hatch covers may be worthwhile?

[MarkTheBike]

...Perhaps some exterior hatch covers may be worthwhile?...

Mandatory if you have Lewmar and are anywhere south of the Arctic Circle! 

[Salty]

I have some hatch covers, though I rarely used them at best and they haven’t seen the light of day now for several years, but while hatch covers are readily available, does anyone actually make covers for portlights?

[Kibo]

Hi Salty

We had some hatch covers made by a canvas maker who made our bimini and dodger and a bow cover. Pretty simple square (or oblong!) of fabric made to size with a drawstring around the edge. We use Sunbrella fabric since we are in high UV area.

Only really needed for the deck hatches which get the main UV blast all day  Our hatches are flush fit compressions seal type that have a ridge around the edge to the covers fit on them quite well. Not sure about other designs of hatch?

I think you can also buy proprietary hatch covers from Lewmar etc too....

Thanks for your original post. Very interesting and helpful.

[Salty]

Hi Salty
.
Thanks for your original post. Very interesting and helpful.

Thanks for the kind words Ian

However in regard to the comment about hatches getting the maximum exposure, my portlights were just as badly crazed as the deck hatches, or arguably were even worse because the deck hatches at least had strips of non slip tape stuck to them which had protected the acrylic under those tapes. The portlights had no protection at all.

[Kibo]

Thanks Salty

Interesting. On my boat all my "vertical" lights are OK so far but I will certainly keep an eye out.

The problem is on the new Vision models the hull and topside lights are all fixed/bonded in so not much chance to change them or protect them since they are flush with the hull.

[SaltyLass]

The portlight acrylic held on CAD is similar in size to a Lewmar portlight bearing the part number A081620H2, and measures 633mm x 159mm to the ends of the horns or prongs that hold the hinges or catches in place. The nominal depth of the portlight opening is 131mm.

If anyone should be interested in ordering replacements for the above sizes of hatch or portlight, send me a private message and I’ll discuss your requirements with the plastics firm and get back to you. Should you have different sizes of hatch or portlights that you want to replace, the first person ordering would need to send an acrylic sample so that it can be accurately measured up for its replacement, costed, and of course carriage charges would be involved for all orders.

I will need to check the part number on the Portlights (Bav36 / 2003) but I would be very interested in trying this. I have sourced replacements from Lewmar (6 for about £930 in total) but this business of the extra 2mm and the screws worries me. I do not want to spend the thick end of £1000 and find that the holes do not match up

[Salty]

The thing to do is to remove each portlight, one at a time by undoing the hinge bolt. With the portlight removed you now have clear access to get at the aluminium hinge and catch brackets. These are small “L” shaped aluminium parts held in place by a small countersunk screw. The screw I think is made from stainless steel, and with that comes the first difficulty in that they can be seized into the aluminium portlight frame. So probably before doing anything at all you should spray some easing oil, WD40 or similar onto each of those particular screws and leave them for a week or two, topping up the easing oil occasionally. There is a lightweight plastic trim provided around the internal perimeter of the Lewmar portlights, and these should be eased gently away before you start.
Once the easing oil has had chance to work try once only with a cross head screwdriver to remove those screws. If that doesn’t work and they don’t undo easily, don’t try it again. Instead I used an impact driver with a relatively lightweight hammer and was able to remove all of the bracket screws on two portlights only, the screws on the remaining four large portlights were totally unwilling to undo and hence my need to look at alternatives. If you are able to remove those screws on all of the portlights then you can go down the route of spending £1000 if you want. If those screws do not undo then your choices are to do as I did, or to buy new portlights complete with frames.
The new portlight acrylics that Lewmar provide have different size hinge pins, different size plastic hinges and catches as well as those “L” shaped brackets, and the new acrylics will not fit and close using the old brackets.
If you are able to remove the securing screws for those brackets, your next problem will be to remove the brackets from the slot through which they are placed. This is also not an easy task and is likely to make you think of all kinds of uncomplimentary things to say about the way they have been fitted.
New Lewmar portlights should come with a complete new set of those brackets, so don’t worry too much about the condition of the old brackets once you have got them out as the new brackets are much easier to put in place than to remove. I had to resort to using a small file to ease removal of the old brackets on the two windows I replaced with new Lewmar acrylics.
I didn’t mess around with the four remaining portlights and went ahead with my DIY option.
Good luck.

[SaltyLass]

Where exactly was the extra 2mm mismatch? I am a little confused about that.

Thanks for all the other tips. I will look at it carefully in the next couple of days

[Salty]

From my original post-
“Checking with an electronic digital calliper revealed that the measurement from the outside of the portlight to the innermost point of the new hinges was 2mm greater than that of the old hinge system, 29 mm instead of 27 mm.”
Essentially you have a thickness of acrylic to which the plastic hinges and catches are stuck. The section through the hinges forms an inverted “V” shape on the inside of the portlight. Measure from the outside of the portlight acrylic to the point of the “V” on the inside, and it should measure 27mm on your old portlights. Similarly with the catches but excluding the moveable part of the catch operating lever.
If you need further explanation I’ll take some photos when I’m back home next week to try to make things clearer, I’m just about to head off to the Southampton Boat Show now, and I’m pushed for time.

[WAArete]

mark the Bike,
 Interestingly, your forward hatch is mounted reverse of mine... Guess, you are prepared for larger seas then mine ....

[MarkTheBike]

mark the Bike,
 Interestingly, your forward hatch is mounted reverse of mine... Guess, you are prepared for larger seas then mine ....

Possibly (although I hope never to test that fully!) but there are times when I wish it opened to the fore. When everything's aft, there's no airflow inside at all and it can get pretty stuffy in summer... same problem when parked and tipping it down from astern. 

[Spirit of Mary]

My boat (BAV 38 2003) was used by a sailing academy in Gibraltar and needed to be RYA certified. The RYA required the forward hatch to be reversed. When at anchour this is a big disadvantage, specially in hot mediterranean weather. It is not easy to get a refreshing airflow inside.
Also the RYA required all the windows and hatches to be replaced because of crazing and too less transparancy (after 5 years of use).

[Yngmar]

Ours was mounted the "safe" way too. I turned it around last year because ventilation at anchor is critical in hot summers. It did leak a few drops (water pressure through the seal) when we were going upwind in a gale with whole waves over the bow, but I'm still glad I turned it around.

Alternatively you can get a wind scoop, but that's one more piece of gear to rig every time you drop the hook.

[WAArete]

The thing to do is to remove each portlight, one at a time by undoing the hinge bolt. With the portlight removed you now have clear access to get at the aluminium hinge and catch brackets. These are small “L” shaped aluminium parts held in place by a small countersunk screw. The screw I think is made from stainless steel, and with that comes the first difficulty in that they can be seized into the aluminium portlight frame. So probably before doing anything at all you should spray some easing oil, WD40 or similar onto each of those particular screws and leave them for a week or two, topping up the easing oil occasionally. There is a lightweight plastic trim provided around the internal perimeter of the Lewmar portlights, and these should be eased gently away before you start.
Once the easing oil has had chance to work try once only with a cross head screwdriver to remove those screws. If that doesn’t work and they don’t undo easily, don’t try it again. Instead I used an impact driver with a relatively lightweight hammer and was able to remove all of the bracket screws on two portlights only, the screws on the remaining four large portlights were totally unwilling to undo and hence my need to look at alternatives. If you are able to remove those screws on all of the portlights then you can go down the route of spending £1000 if you want. If those screws do not undo then your choices are to do as I did, or to buy new portlights complete with frames.
The new portlight acrylics that Lewmar provide have different size hinge pins, different size plastic hinges and catches as well as those “L” shaped brackets, and the new acrylics will not fit and close using the old brackets.
If you are able to remove the securing screws for those brackets, your next problem will be to remove the brackets from the slot through which they are placed. This is also not an easy task and is likely to make you think of all kinds of uncomplimentary things to say about the way they have been fitted.
New Lewmar portlights should come with a complete new set of those brackets, so don’t worry too much about the condition of the old brackets once you have got them out as the new brackets are much easier to put in place than to remove. I had to resort to using a small file to ease removal of the old brackets on the two windows I replaced with new Lewmar acrylics.
I didn’t mess around with the four remaining portlights and went ahead with my DIY option.
Good luck.

Salty,
 I saw your diy post. However, given your vast knowledge on Lewmar. You say, the friction pins for the hinges were either too big or too small? I found the same thing today upon trying to swap out a replacement Hatch. The pins just ever so slightly oversized for the receiver. My question, back to port lights. Lewmar seems to have multiple models for our Bavarias. New standard and old standard, plus #1 and #2 for its new standard. How does one determine which one has?
 Thanks once again,
 Roland

[Salty]

I saw your diy post. However, given your vast knowledge on Lewmar. You say, the friction pins for the hinges were either too big or too small? I found the same thing today upon trying to swap out a replacement Hatch. The pins just ever so slightly oversized for the receiver. My question, back to port lights. Lewmar seems to have multiple models for our Bavarias. New standard and old standard, plus #1 and #2 for its new standard. How does one determine which one has?
 Thanks once again,
 Roland

Hi Roland,
Your old portlights assuming they are the same as mine were, should have the identification number A081620H2 moulded into the acrylic near to one of the long edges of the portlight.

If they have that number on them then you need to purchase the Mark2 or New Standard portlight replacement acrylic. I understand that the replacement acrylic should be marked 361341990, but I can’t confirm that until I go back to my boat next weekend.

Be aware that you cannot mix and match parts from the old acrylics with the new because while the new acrylics will fit within the opening provided by the aluminium frame, the hinges and catches have different dimensions, and the hinge pins for the new portlights are of 5mm diameter instead of 4mm originally used, and the “L” shaped brackets used for the hinges and latches have a longer vertical leg to enable the larger plastic hinges and latches to be fitted.

Getting the old stainless screws that secure these “L” shaped brackets out of the aluminium frame can be a pig of a job because of the corrosion that occurs between stainless steel and aluminium. If you are lucky and have the right tools to do the job and are able to remove those stainless screws, the next problem comes in removing the “L” brackets from the slot into which they were placed. Inside the cabin there are plastic headlining mouldings which may partially cover those slots through which the L brackets are placed and which make removal of the brackets very difficult. Here you need a small thin flat file to remove the plastic where it overlaps the edges of the slot, though possibly a sharp Stanley Knife might do the trick as it is only some 1 or 2 mm of plastic that actually needs removal. The area will be covered by the portable plastic moulding you have already removed to gain access to the area, so you don’t need to be concerned about the area being marked with what you are doing.

Good luck with the task, and that’s a great part of the world to be sailing in.

[Clivert]

When you leave the boat put hatch covers on.
It will stop the uv damaging them.
Uv is a killer long term on anything

[Salty]

When you leave the boat put hatch covers on.
It will stop the uv damaging them.
Uv is a killer long term on anything

That’s a good idea, but how do you protect the portlights? ....They go crazy too !!

[Salty]

Where exactly was the extra 2mm mismatch? I am a little confused about that.
.
.

The measurement from the outer face of the acrylic portlight to the innermost point on either the hinge or the catch on the opening Lewmar portlights fitted to boats such as my B36 of 2002 was mentioned as being 27mm. However in order to try to give a clearer indication of where that measurement should be taken, I took a photo of one of my old portlights where the hinges and catches had not been removed, and I refer readers who may be interested to the photo below. Here you can see the outer face of the acrylic portlight and, for want of a better expression, the horns that form part of the shape of the acrylic portlight to which the hinges or catches are glued. Measuring as shown by the yellow arrows between the outside face of the acrylic to the innermost point on each hinge or catch should be 27mm. However on the new replacements provided by Lexmark, and because of their modifications to the original set up, that measurement is now 29mm. To accommodate the extra 2mm Lewmar have had to provide longer “L” shaped brackets because if the original brackets are re-used it will not be possible to shut their new portlight replacements.

[s/y Susanne]

Salty's write up, and his willingness to answer supplementary questions both deserve serious praise. So thanks to Salty and all who have contributed to this subject.

I have the same problem with crazed, UV damaged, plastic portlights and hatches ( B44/2002) and have to admit that, in the case of portlights, I really would prefer to replace them with fixed portlights. We never open ours anymore as they always leaked after being opened.
 
Has anyone experimented with toughened glass and a fixed retaining bezel and seal? There appears to be enough through-fixings in the frame to allow substantial and even compression of gaskets to hold in place a glass lens. It would require fabrication of an aluminium or s/s inner bezel and would involve dispensing with the  white plastic clip-on inner trims but from an engineering "feel" I would rather trust such a portlight against re-glued plastic clips.

Glass could be toughened, laminated or both.

Any ideas anyone?

[Clivert]

When we leave the boat we put hatch covers on.
Reduces uv damage.

[Salty]

Salty's write up, and his willingness to answer supplementary questions both deserve serious praise. So thanks to Salty and all who have contributed to this subject.
.
.
Has anyone experimented with toughened glass and a fixed retaining bezel and seal? There appears to be enough through-fixings in the frame to allow substantial and even compression of gaskets to hold in place a glass lens. It would require fabrication of an aluminium or s/s inner bezel and would involve dispensing with the  white plastic clip-on inner trims but from an engineering "feel" I would rather trust such a portlight against re-glued plastic clips.

Glass could be toughened, laminated or both.

Any ideas anyone?

Firstly, thank you for your kind words, they are much appreciated.

In regard to toughened or laminated glass, or a mixture of both, I think that checking the after market manufacturers of replacement windows would show more than one that are capable of providing fixed windows with glass rather than plastic lenses. In my case I had wanted to try to replace like with like, and I spoke to several such firms at last years Southampton boat-show, and several were interested in what I’d done, but whether they thought it viable from a business point of view, I have no idea, but I’m sure that some of them did fixed pane non opening glass windows. Whether they were toughened or laminated I must admit I didn’t ask.

[Salty]

When we leave the boat we put hatch covers on.
Reduces uv damage.

Using hatch covers on the hatches is a good move, but as I said in an earlier reply, how do you protect your portlights? These are also exposed to the sun and are equally vulnerable to UV damage. On my boat the portlights were every bit as badly damaged from crazing as were the hatches.

I have had a special reflective film that was specifically designed for use on plastic windows applied to my hatches and portlights, and after one full year there is no crazing yet on any of the acrylic lenses to which it was fitted. Also, and while it’s not much help in the UK, it does help to reduce cabin temperatures during the summer months and so would be of benefit to those whose boats are kept in warmer climates.

In response to WAArete and my posting on May 27. Roland, I have now checked the the two genuine Lewmar portlight replacements fitted to replace two of old my cabin portlights, and contrary to the number I had suggested in the posting that day and which appears to be just some stock code used by a UK seller of replacement Lewmar products, the marking on the replacement Lewmar portlights includes the following number 30081609 P 14F16 and with the word Lewmar imprinted above the numbering. On these replacement windows the Lewmar marking is almost, but not quite invisible, but it does help to open the portlight and move it around a bit in order to allow the light to reveal the markings.

[Salty]

Hi All,
This is to advise you of an update I have added to the second posting under this heading.
In regard to the adhesive used, while visiting the sellers website today, I noticed that they now had a longer curing version of the glue I had used to stick the hinges and latches to the acrylic portlights. This adhesive has a curing time of 15 - 18 minutes, so that would take all of the pressure off getting the hinges and latches all properly into place before the glue became unworkable.
The adhesive, Partite 7310(MA310) is available through eBay, or direct from the seller whose telephone number is shown on the attached photo below, and currently is priced under £9 per 50ml cartridge. As before it comes in a twin tube cartridge with the two components being mixed together after being dispensed at a ratio of 1/1.