Route information and charts, Help wanted.

[Impavidus]

Hi folks.
Well, we have done it! Late last year I sold off my workshop. The house has sold and the most of the furniture has been bagged by the kids. All the crap we have a accumulated in the last 20 years here has been car-booted. I have stopped taking on consultancy work and Cid has put in her notice. We are both retiring!!!

Mid may we are starting the next chapter and challenge! 

So we are fitting out Impavidus for long range cruising, kitting her out and making some improvements.
 
We have electronic charts but are looking for second hand paper charts post 2015, from Jersey to the Eastern Med.
We are also looking for recommendations for acorages, marinas and stop of points in the same areas. 

If you have charts, books or almanacs that are reasonably recent we are in the market :-)

If you can recommend acorages, marinas and stop of points, or just anecdotal info please post them.

Oh, nearly forgot, we are getting an aluminium hulled rib in the 2.8m region, looking at the Ribeye, Zal and AB range. Any pointers? We are going for the Honda 6Hp 4 stroke. Fitting davits, down wind sail, (looking for good second hand) aft winches, MPPT charge controller, AIS transmitter and much more, so if you have any recommendations, let us know.

FYI we are going to document our travels so our friends and family know what we are up to. We have started a youtube channel and are developing our skills. The practical stuff will be in the upcoming vids. (check it out here; https://youtu.be/dVWHSlyCPNE)  Or just go to you tube and search for SV Impavidus.


Ant & Cid
 

[Yngmar]

Congrats! Exciting times ahead for you

We've documented our journey from Brighton down to Portugal last year on our blog, start reading here if you like and just follow the "read next" links at the bottom of each article. There'll usually be mention about places we really liked and liked less. This year we'll peek into the med, hopefully starting April.

We have not used any paper charts, only electronic charts (of which we have several backups) in combination with printed Almanacs/Pilot books. The Reeds has basic coverage down to Gibraltar, but I strongly recommend the RCCPF pilot for Atlantic Spain & Portugal, which has much more detail, aerial photos and advice on facilities, formalities and places to visit on land.

For MPPT chargers, Victron is the gold standard and we're very happy with ours. The Matsutec HP-33a AIS transceiver (£350 on Amazon) served us well too. Oh, and we're very happy with our 3m Portabote (a folding dinghy), as we didn't want davits. 600W solar was about right for us, but we're both heavy computer users and the boat has a big fridge.

Good luck!

[Impavidus]

Yngmar many thanks.
Thats just the kind of thing we are looking for. We have 200 watts of solar at the moment but we are thinking about adding another 200 watts with a Victron. We have Garmin charts for the entire med, but I am looking to use Navionics on my Ipad as a back up. I am a bit of a traditionalist when it comes to paper charts we still plot every hour on to paper on long passages and keep a paper log.
Edit; just found this looks too good to be true @ £280.00 https://www.sartech.com/sevenstar-seatracer-ais-class-b-transceiver.html

Thanks again.

Ant

[Lyra]

Take caution when using the Navionics. I am not sure where they get their info from, and I think the maps on the mobile apps also use "community provided information" which may be inaccurate. About two years ago they placed some non exisiting islands off the shore of Israel  - they got the info from a map used by sailing schools for pilotage practicing which clearly states it is not to be used for navigation (the Israeli shore is very dull in features so they added some for practicing). I think that for ipad there is another navigation software (which does not exist for Android) but do not remember its name.

As to paper charts - although I have the full (now a bit outdated) set of Imray charts for Greece and Turkey, I seldom used it. I would probably purchase only the two maps that cover the westrern and eastern Med (both Imray and Admiralty have such) for a general view and long passage planning.

You can also take a look at http://www.cruiserswiki.org - it covers well the Mediterranean from Italy and eastwards, and slightly less the western "basin".

When you get to Greece and eastwards I guess I will be able to provide specific information as required.

[Salty]

Ref reply #3, also be aware that Navionics have not always used internationally accepted chart symbols on their electronic charts. I have noticed this particularly in regard to wreck symbols, but because of the errors I have found, it would not surprise me if there were errors in other areas. Errors lead to confusion and that can cost lives.
Also be aware that charts produced by the hydrographic offices of other countries do not use the criteria in the same way in regard to out laying dangers as we do in the UK. For example, in the UK a dangerous wreck symbol is used where the depth of water above a wreck is considered to be 28 metres or less, but in the USA (unless recently changed) and a few other countries, their cutoff depth was and may still be equivalent to 20 metres, and any depth greater they considered to be safe for all vessels. All of the VLCCs that I served on had drafts well over 20 metres, so when navigating through US waters it paid to know about such differences and to keep well away from those dangers. And yes, I know our little boats don't have drafts anywhere near the depths I've mentioned above, but that is not the point, it's whether the information you are seeing on the chart be it paper or electronic is correct or not in all areas, not just about wrecks. I strongly recommend that all should read at least chapter 1 of the Mariners Handbook as published by the UK Hydrographic Office.

[geoff]

I would echo the caution,  but I would add that it applies to all gps derived plotting aids in the med. The data from which most of them are derived is hopelessly out of date /inaccurate. I sailed the routes outlined in the period 2007/12 and found myself sailing over small islands to the south of Sardinia  and entering Greek harbours where the was no entrance only harbour wall. All of this was with up to date c map chart and a careful. check of datum selected in the plotter. On the original question I did not much like southern Spain  but the east was good , Italy was VERY expensive  Corsica was a joy !  Sardinia was very good if you avoid the superyacht bit . Corfu/Ionian a real delight but the standard of seamanship from the charter fleets is scary. Enjoy !! Geoff

[Kibo]

On RIBS..

I bought an AB Lamina aluminium 9 foot RIB and have used it for 4 months every winter liveaboard in Caribbean. Three seasons on and it is in great shape. Don't buy a painted one - the most common failure of tube adhesion to the hull is paint adhesion failure rather than adhesive failure. I haul it on Davits and it is very easy to launch ad recover.

I also recommend getting dinghy chaps (tube covers) made out of sunbrella fabric or similar to protect the tubes in the sunlight.

Powered with a 9.8 HP Tohatsu or a 5 HP Tohatsu (I have two engines) it takes care of 4 people with ease if needed (when landlocked UK friends come to play in the sun!)

Hoe it helps

[Impavidus]

Many thanks guys. I guess my lack of faith in electronics is well founded then. Hence why we still use paper too. I have herd things about Navionics before but assumed it was just sour grapes.
I have used the Garmin Blue chart's G2 Vision in UK and down to Jersey. I have found it very accurate but, its Vector charting not Raster. So you loose detail when you zoom out. We have Neptune as well on a PC. Now that really is good software and its on of the few that uses BHO charts and gives you tidal, wind and other data that allows you to set a 24 hour window with the best time to go. I will have to take a look and see if they do a Mac version as we do not want to take a PC.

Kibo, interesting, I guess that they are powder coating the hulls and the PPC just de-laminates?   

Ant 

[Lyra]

For a laptop based navigation software take a look at OpenCPN  https://opencpn.org- free, open source and available for all popular operating systems.
I have been using the Windows based version for many years and about 3 years ago I installed it on the  boat on a Raspberry Pi (Linux) and it is now my electronic chart plotter. You can interface it to AIS as well as display GRIB weather files - very convenient in the med where you are rarely out of cellular range more than a day or two and can download a 4 days of forecast (check this site for good weather forecasts for the Med - www.openskiron.org).

[Twhitt]

Hi, we currently use the isailor app on ipads, and find it very good for both planning and cockpit navigation. We have sailed in Greece Saronic and Argolic Gulfs, South of France, Corsica and Sardinia with this.

Also for anchorages, would recommend Navily app. Its free, and has many anchorages shown, including comments and photos by users, such as us.

We will be back out to our 38 Holiday in May

[Kibo]

Hi Ant

Yes I think so. Have first hand stories from other Cruisers to back it up along with the usual internet gossip. Unpainted looks OK too and I think they are a little cheaper to boot !

[Craig]

Guys,

The argument about paper versus electronic  (Navionics) charts is a bit misleading.

The "Not to be Used for Navigation" notation on the typical charts used by Yachties is because, under SOLAS, ships must have electronic navigation charts that, amongst other things, are updated regularly ( who updates their electronic charts weekly) and allows plotting of the proposed passage onto the chart, and the ability to overlay danger areas etc. Because most yachties charts can't do this, they have the "Not to be used for Navigation" notation.

I have noted that some of the depth contours on Navionics charts have the wrong colour. The Ïslands" that do not exist on some Navionics charts are usually a brown shading, not the blue shading for the depth involved.

The National Charts produced are designed for shipping movements, not for your typical yachtie. As such, they focus on major shipping areas or where the depths are greater than 10 m.

If you download a Navionics chart, or any other electronic chart you will receive up to date information as the companies behind the charts are constantly updating their charts from the Hydrographic Office information. Large ships with electronic navigation facilities have the same information supplied. Buy a Paper chart and it will only be updated at the time of printing.

Unfortunately, in the Med, some of the hydrographic information is outdated, not because of a problem with electronic charts, but slackness by the governments in updating the information.

I personally find it easier to plan on large paper charts spread over the saloon table but use a chart-plotter on the helm.

Yachting Monthly are printing an article I wrote, sometime this year, about Keeping a Proper Lookout in the electronic age. It looks at a common thread that lead to losses of  "Team Vestas Wind", Clipper yacht "Greenings" and "Price Waterhouse Coopers".  None of these boats had a "proper" set up of their electronic navigation aids.

Craig
"Shirley Valentine"
Gold Coast
Australia.

[Kibo]

To Craig's point this is an interesting article too

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sailing-skills/how-to-use-vector-charts-safely-33747

I look forward to reading Craig's article soon as well.

[Escapade]

Hi, we currently use the isailor app on ipads, and find it very good for both planning and cockpit navigation. We have sailed in Greece Saronic and Argolic Gulfs, South of France, Corsica and Sardinia with this.

Also for anchorages, would recommend Navily app. Its free, and has many anchorages shown, including comments and photos by users, such as us.

We will be back out to our 38 Holiday in May

I also use iSailor for south of France, Italy west coast, Corsica and Sardinia and find it accurate enough and of very practical use for cockpit navigation.
On ipad screen on the contrary it is difficult to plan long passages as the screen become cluttered hence i use paper charts.
I also share Twhitt opinion about Navily app, it is very useful but mostly for south of France and Corsica. It is free.
Cheers

[Craig]

Guys,

Please find attached the unformatted draft of my article mentioned above. I didn't upload the photos. It might be worthwhile reading in conjunction with the article posted by KIBO, quoting Tom Cunliffe. Tom does raise a number of valid points regarding Vector Charts but , in common with most current thought, thinks of Navigation as a Planning exercise, and seems to dismiss electronic charts use as "Lookout" tools.

I think that the points I raise would lead sailors to install chart-plotters at the helm where they can be easily seen.

If you are going to the Med, particularly the Eastern Med get the relevant Paper Charts, the Pilot Guides and a modern Chart-Plotter with AIS overlay.

Set up your boat with a Chart-Plotter on the helm with the AIS overlays. I personally found my Radar fairly useless in the Med but did use it at night on long passages.

Craig
"Shirley Valentine"
Gold Coast
Australia

[Kibo]

I agree Craig... I use a chart plotter at the helm and make sure I am "zoomed in" when around detail just in case. Some would say I am over reliant on electronics; I would say I use both to equal measure.

Frankly I do have the paper charts for my cruising area but I use these as the "back up"and the primary is my electronics nowadays.

Nice article....

[tckearney]

Having been an engineer on cruise ships most of my working life I am surprised at all the arguments here about electronic charts.  Also I have just taken my yacht masters theory and during this training it was insisted that electronic charts are for secondary use only and only paper charts are reliable.  It is therefore surprising to know that the cruise ship company I worked for and it is the biggest in the world, do not even carry paper charts let alone use them.

[Kibo]

What surprises me is how out of date the RYA are

[Craig]

I am a RYA Cruising Instructor. I agree with Kibo and Tckearney's comments.

I have difficulty explaining to students ( in Australia) the differences in the RYA theory courses and reality here. Secondary Ports in Australia are calculated using a completely different methodology to that used in the English Chanel. We have troughs and ridges, not warm and cold fronts over much of Australia, and they can be almost stationary for weeks at a time. The wind speed will rise as the barometer rises as ridges establish along the east coast. Clouds mean totally different things.

After learning how to do a 3 point fix and plotting on a chart the students seem confident until it is explained that the actual position only has a less than 25% probability of being in their Cocked Hat.

The incredible thing about safety is that, although there are many times more cruising sailors out there with little experience, many of the incidents are actually Racing boats with experienced crew.

It is not just the RYA that is behind in education but the IMO as well. The Colregs, in my opinion are 15 to 20 years behind reality. A.I.S. is not mentioned, calling ships on VHF when they may be turning to ensure they have seen you is not a standard collision procedure.

The requirement for all racing boats to have a magnetic compass on the helm but not have a chart-plotter or AiS on the helm is 30 years behind in the thinking.

Craig
" Shirley Valentine"
Gold Coast
Australia

[Kibo]

One of the many reasons I will not give the RYA my money for meaningless qualifications....

[Clivert]

Came back to Portsmouth from Gib two years ago late March early April crewing on a Pacific Seacraft 40.
Three on board doing 4 hour watches during the day and 3 hour watches at night.
Met the skipper in Gib for the first time and have been friends ever since and subsequently joined Portsmouth Sailing Club.
Chris used electronics nav for the whole trip for the  first time in his life ( being an Ocean Cruising Club Member ) using C charts.
We used small harbours most of the way,all of which were extremely welcoming and helpful.
Only picked up fuel from fishing harbours as marina fuel ( chip oil ) had been sitting for months over the winter.
Always went to " old town " markets for food and occasional restaurant which in both cases excellent.
Reverse of our route would be:
Chebourg,St Peterport, L' abervrach, chanal du four to Camaret.
Across Biscay to Villa Garcia then to Bayonna and then on down to Porvoa de Varzim.
The around Cape St Vincent to Lagos and on to Gibraltar.
This kept longest leg to about three days and nights.
The advantage you will have going south is that it gets warmer.
For us coming north was that it got colder and colder especially on night watches.
Every leg was planned with an eye on the weather and we had a great trip doing just over 1200 miles,eating well all the way ( continental market are fantastic for fresh food ) and I managed to cook a roast crossing Biscay.
Enjoy you trip and have fun.
Clive

[aquapore]

Do you know you can print out the electronic charts in colour with Opencpn. An a1 colour print should cost ca $5 and laminating another $5 if you want.

Cheapest, most reliable and easiest to obtan.

Regards

Aquapore

[Rampage]

One of the strengths of electronic charts, be they on a fixed plotter, tablet or laptop, is the level of detail provided.  As you zoom in on a point more and more detail is exposed: the only way you can achieve that with paper charts is to carry not only the area charts but also all the port plans etc.  That's not only expensive but space consuming and heavy.
I have c map charts on the chart table and helm plotters and Imray charts of our cruising areas, plus UKHO charts of the route from UK to Barcelona.  I also have Navionics on the iPad and iPhone....  I use paper charts for passage planning, as by choosing the right scale of chart you can see the whole route.  Navionics is used mainly for answering the "how much longer?" questions using the routing tool.  For actual navigation, the paper chart is open down below but the chart plotter does the work at the helm.
I agree that there are parts of the world where the chart plotter happily tells you you're sailing over an island when you've got 15m below the keel: that's down to old detailed charts not being converted to WGS84 before they were incorporated into the C Map chart.   It tends only to happen when zoomed in very close and you're relying on the Mark 1 eyeball to navigate anyhow: you'd need to be a special sort of idiot to accept that information as accurate!  When, on the odd occasion, I've had to make a night approach to an unlit anchorage, I disregard the plotter and use radar to position the boat in the channel: examine the chart, determine how far off you need to keep specific shore features (that will show on radar) and work your way into the anchorage.  Entertaining us doable.

[Salty]

Going back to my earlier reply, #4, herewith a link to the Mariners Handbook edition 9 (not the latest edition). http://sbs-on-web.com/downloads/General/Mariners_Handbook_2009.PDF   Chapters 1 and 2 will give an insight into the production of paper charts and the errors they may contain. Most, if not all, electronic charts are based on information from paper charts which as the handbook makes clear may contain errors of some considerable significance.
Consider for a while that sea areas were charted over several hundreds of years, long before electronic navigation systems became available with surveys being carried out using a sextant or its predecessor the Quintant, and with chronometers where the last reasonably accurate time check may have been carried out some months prior to an area being surveyed (remember that an error of four seconds of time can make a mile of difference at the equator, and praise that Yorkshire carpenter Harrison for his invention of the first workable marine chronometer). Electronic or radio time signals with which to check the accuracy of the chronometer did not become available until the 20th century, depth sounders had to wait until the 1st world war and until then a depth was obtained from a lump of lead attached to a long rope. It only measured the area of the base of that lump of lead (just a couple of inches) which might have dropped into a deep hole in the seabed. A line of soundings where the depth was known all along that line was obtained only after the invention of the echo sounder (about 1917), but charts using  lines of soundings did not show exactly what the depth was between each successive line of soundings as the survey vessel tracked back and forth across the area being surveyed . All they could hope for was that the depth didn’t change much and there have been plenty of casualties where ships had their bottoms ripped out by something not previously found.
Yes, we have some fantastic systems available today, but until all charts and everything they contain on them has been digitised and survey vessels sent out to check (expensive business) that everything is where it is claimed to be, we will continue to have charts both paper and electronic that are not entirely accurate, and hence the need to eyeball the situation.
Read the book, it contains a mine of information, preferably invest about a £100 and get the latest edition, if you have not read it before its an eye opener!!