Author Topic: Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger  (Read 13324 times)

ANTREVELL

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Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger
« on: February 10 2017, 20:03 »
On my Cruiser 33 I have a 130 alternator connected to a Quick 3 battery charge separator.
Having spoken with Sterling they suggest I can install there 130 Alternator to battery charger between the Alternator and the Quick charge separator.
Has anybody done this .

Regards Tony Revell   Cruiser 33 Pegatha

tiger79

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Re: Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger
« Reply #1 on: February 10 2017, 20:27 »
I don't think you'll gain much benefit, if any.  Your alternator will be putputting 14.5-14.6v, and the Quick isolator is very low loss.  You'd be better off spending the money on additional battery capacity.

ANTREVELL

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Re: Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger
« Reply #2 on: February 10 2017, 21:09 »
Hi

I have increased my battery bank from 2 - 70 amp batts  to 3 -70 amp batts now replaced all three with 4 - 110amp .
(If anybody interested in the 3 batteries let me know almost like new)

Wanted to ensure the batteries get the best charge . Just wondered if anybody else had done it.  I will let you know the result when the new season starts

Regards Tony Revell  Cruiser 33 pegatha



tiger79

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Re: Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger
« Reply #3 on: February 10 2017, 21:13 »
OK, so you have a new bigger battery bank, a modern alternator and a low-loss isolator.  The Sterling A-to-B won't give you any real benefit.

ANTREVELL

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Re: Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger
« Reply #4 on: February 10 2017, 21:16 »
Sorry a typo the alternator is a 100amp not a 130 .  The A/B is a 130.

Regards Tony

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Re: Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger
« Reply #5 on: February 10 2017, 21:19 »
Sorry a typo the alternator is a 100amp not a 130 .  The A/B is a 130.

Regards Tony

Doesn't make any difference, the A-to-B can't output any more than the alternator can.

patprice

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Re: Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger
« Reply #6 on: February 10 2017, 22:25 »
Do I understand from the above that a Sterling A to B is of no value with a modern alternator because such an alternator has a built in smart regulator?
So in my case with B42 year 2000 and "ancient" Valeo alternator (MD22 Volvo) which takes for ever to replace say 30 AH, I will get an improvement with an A to B.
I hope so as I want to take an A to B to Greece in May, from Australia. Cheaper it seems!

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Re: Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger
« Reply #7 on: February 11 2017, 10:23 »
You will get a massive improvement patprice. I have a Valeo 60 amp alternator on an MD22 and fitting an A-B boosted the voltage output and reduced the charge time massively.  On a transatlantic, we were running the engine for 2 hours/day to get back to float charge, and that's with autohelm and frige on 24/7 and nav lights on at night.  I had a few marine engineers telling me that it wouldn't help and what I needed to do was to put a bigger alternator on, but I'm glad I ignored them.  They simply didn't understand what the A-B does.

tiger79

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Re: Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger
« Reply #8 on: February 11 2017, 11:03 »
Do I understand from the above that a Sterling A to B is of no value with a modern alternator because such an alternator has a built in smart regulator?

Most modern alternators don't have a built-in smart regulator, but they do have a regulator which is set to a higher voltage than in times gone by.  Today, alternators will typically output 14.5-14.6v.  Additionally, modern charge isolators have very low voltage losses (current Bavarias use Quick low-loss devices).  If you have maintenance-free or AGM batteries, the Sterling A-to-B charger will output 14.4v, so there'll be no real benefit.  If you have open wet batteries, the Sterling can be set to charge at 14.8v, so there'll be a small benefit.

patprice

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Re: Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger
« Reply #9 on: February 11 2017, 21:01 »
You will get a massive improvement patprice. I have a Valeo 60 amp alternator on an MD22 and fitting an A-B boosted the voltage output and reduced the charge time massively.  On a transatlantic, we were running the engine for 2 hours/day to get back to float charge, and that's with autohelm and frige on 24/7 and nav lights on at night.  I had a few marine engineers telling me that it wouldn't help and what I needed to do was to put a bigger alternator on, but I'm glad I ignored them.  They simply didn't understand what the A-B does.
Do I understand from the above that a Sterling A to B is of no value with a modern alternator because such an alternator has a built in smart regulator?

Most modern alternators don't have a built-in smart regulator, but they do have a regulator which is set to a higher voltage than in times gone by.  Today, alternators will typically output 14.5-14.6v.  Additionally, modern charge isolators have very low voltage losses (current Bavarias use Quick low-loss devices).  If you have maintenance-free or AGM batteries, the Sterling A-to-B charger will output 14.4v, so there'll be no real benefit.  If you have open wet batteries, the Sterling can be set to charge at 14.8v, so there'll be a small benefit.

Now I am really confused. The two posts above seem to conflict. I do have AGM batteries. IslandAlchemy do you have AGM's?
Yes Tiger79 I was wrong saying modern alternators have a smart regulator. Are you saying that I will get little benefit because the settings for AGM's mean a lower charge voltage.

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Re: Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger
« Reply #10 on: February 11 2017, 22:51 »


Now I am really confused. The two posts above seem to conflict. I do have AGM batteries. IslandAlchemy do you have AGM's?
Yes Tiger79 I was wrong saying modern alternators have a smart regulator. Are you saying that I will get little benefit because the settings for AGM's mean a lower charge voltage.

If you have AGM batteries, and set a Sterling A-to-B charger to the AGM setting, it will charge at 14.4v max at the batteries.  You need to measure the charge voltage at your battery terminals, when the batteries are approaching full charge, and see what your alternator is delivering.  If it's within 0.2v of the 14.4v the Sterling would deliver, you'll only see a small benefit with the Sterling.

The market for add-on "smart regulators" arose because older alternators were often regulated at 14.0v, and boats often had diode splitters which reduced the charge voltage at the battery by another 0.5v or so.  Hence Sterling, Adverc, Driftgate, etc, producing add-on regulators which boosted the voltage reaching the battery.  Unfortunately, these devices involve soldering a connection to the alternator brushes, so Sterling came up with the idea of the Alternator-to-Battery charger, which doesn't need any modification to the alternator, and therefore doesn't invalidate the warranty on a new alternator.  However, with the higher voltage setting of newer alternators, these add-on devices often give little benefit (although the makers won't tell you that).  The Sterling A-to-B charger does effectively include a blocking diode, so may be cost-effective if you're starting from scratch.

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Re: Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger
« Reply #11 on: February 12 2017, 11:00 »
I'm also confused......................
    I don't have an 'A2B' charger but I am interested in obtaining one. As I understand it, the alternator belts out the Amps when the battery voltage is low, say 11.5-12V i.e. flat, but as the battery voltage rises towards fully charged the alternator regulator reduces its output. This means the last 10-20% of charge can take hours to achieve.
    The 'A2B' tricks the alternator by holding the voltage at the alternator at a low level so that it will continue to belt out the Amps and not slacken off.
 This apparently allows the latter stages of charge to be achieved much more quickly..............I think?....... it does sound plausible.

tiger79

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Re: Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger
« Reply #12 on: February 12 2017, 12:08 »
I'm also confused......................
    I don't have an 'A2B' charger but I am interested in obtaining one. As I understand it, the alternator belts out the Amps when the battery voltage is low, say 11.5-12V i.e. flat, but as the battery voltage rises towards fully charged the alternator regulator reduces its output. This means the last 10-20% of charge can take hours to achieve.
    The 'A2B' tricks the alternator by holding the voltage at the alternator at a low level so that it will continue to belt out the Amps and not slacken off.
 This apparently allows the latter stages of charge to be achieved much more quickly..............I think?....... it does sound plausible.

The standard alternator regulator controls the alternator so that its voltage doesn't exceed around 14.5v.  With flat batteries, the voltage difference between the alternator and the battery causes a high charge current to flow.  The amount of that current is dependent on lots of things, including the alternator's maximum current capacity, the size of the battery and the type of the battery.  As the battery approaches 80-90% charged, the voltage difference between the alternator and the battery is much less, so less current flows.  The alternator's regulator doesn't reduce the output.

The A-to-B charger electronically controls its output, so that the charging voltage can be higher than a standard alternator.  With wet lead-acid batteries, the A-to-B can be set to output 14.8v, which is more than a standard alternator, so it will encourage more charge current.  However, with "sealed" maintenance-free or AGM batteries, the A-to-B only outputs 14.4v - about the same as a regular alternator, so is unlikely to charge any quicker.

You can't force more charge into batteries than they want to take.  Lots of people think that fitting a bigger alternator will magically increase the charge current; but in most cases it won't, unless the existing alternator is very under-rated. 

If you have a modern alternator and a low-loss isolator, you won't see much improvement with an A-to-B charger.  However, what you need to do is measure the maximum voltage at the batteries when they're approaching full charge.  If this is in the region of 14.4v, you won't see any real improvement with maintenance-free or AGM batteries.  If you have wet lead-acid batteries, you could use an A-to-B charger to increase the alternator voltage to 14.8v to encourage faster charging.

An A-to-B charger basically does the same job as the much cheaper add-on "smart" regulators (Sterling, Adverc, etc) but has the advantage that there's no need to modify the alternator to connect it.

JEN-et-ROSS

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Re: Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger
« Reply #13 on: February 12 2017, 15:20 »
EXTRACT FROM STERLING POWER SALES LITERATURE.

"How do we do this?
Well, in theory it is very simple. With an advanced regulator which connects to the alternator?s regulator, we override the standard alternator regulator and we push the alternator?s voltage up to increase the voltage at the batteries. This results in a massive charge improvement at the batteries.
With the alternator to battery charger we do the reverse. We put a "load" on the alternator to pull the alternator voltage down. This fools the alternator into thinking that there is a major drain on the system and as such, the standard regulator works at full current. However, the voltage is pulled down to a totally useless voltage for charging batteries. So the new system takes in this high current, but low voltage, and amplifies the voltage to charge the auxiliary battery bank at a much higher voltage than the base system voltage. In order to achieve the fast battery charging, the software control program and settings for this product are the same as for our digital battery chargers and our digital advanced alternator regulator."

 The above is an extract from Sterling Power's sales blurb. They also claim "up to 5 times faster charging" as in the following:-

 "Over 5 times faster charging.  This charger optimizes the available output of the alternator and converts it to mimic that of a mains driven 4 stage battery charger.  Consequently your batteries will charge faster resulting in less engine hours and a reduction in fuel used.  This charger can therefore, pay for itself within a matter of weeks."

I'm still confused, as the above are quite explicit claims from a well respected company............Bill 




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Re: Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger
« Reply #14 on: February 12 2017, 17:46 »
EXTRACT FROM STERLING POWER SALES LITERATURE.

"How do we do this?
Well, in theory it is very simple. With an advanced regulator which connects to the alternator?s regulator, we override the standard alternator regulator and we push the alternator?s voltage up to increase the voltage at the batteries. This results in a massive charge improvement at the batteries.
With the alternator to battery charger we do the reverse. We put a "load" on the alternator to pull the alternator voltage down. This fools the alternator into thinking that there is a major drain on the system and as such, the standard regulator works at full current. However, the voltage is pulled down to a totally useless voltage for charging batteries. So the new system takes in this high current, but low voltage, and amplifies the voltage to charge the auxiliary battery bank at a much higher voltage than the base system voltage. In order to achieve the fast battery charging, the software control program and settings for this product are the same as for our digital battery chargers and our digital advanced alternator regulator."

 The above is an extract from Sterling Power's sales blurb. They also claim "up to 5 times faster charging" as in the following:-

 "Over 5 times faster charging.  This charger optimizes the available output of the alternator and converts it to mimic that of a mains driven 4 stage battery charger.  Consequently your batteries will charge faster resulting in less engine hours and a reduction in fuel used.  This charger can therefore, pay for itself within a matter of weeks."

I'm still confused, as the above are quite explicit claims from a well respected company............Bill

Ah, bless you, you're tempted to believe Charles Sterling's sales blurb!  The A-to-B charger would only charge "5 times faster" if you had a rubbishy old alternator, a diode blocker and poor wiring.  In the real world, as I've tried to explain, the charging current is proportional to the difference in voltage between the charger and the battery.  With a discharged battery (low battery voltage) the current can be quite high.  With a nearly-charged battery (higher battery voltage) the current will be less.   The A-to-B charger can't magically reverse the basic physics of charging.

As I suggested before, why not measure your charge voltage before spending your money on something which may not make much difference?

ANTREVELL

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Re: Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger
« Reply #15 on: February 18 2017, 19:21 »
Despite reading all the replies Thank you for your responses.  I decided I would proceed.

I have today fitted the Sterling  A/B charger connecting the Alternator output to the Sterling  input marked  Alternator .
The Sterling domestic output I have connected to the input of the Quick charge seperator which was already installed on the boat this is already connected to the 3 battery banks.

The boat is not in the water so prolonged running of the engine is not feasable.

But initial testing showed the output from the Alternator was 13.8 - 13.9volts.   The output at the A/B charger was 14.4volts
I have a Nasa battery monitor installed ,monitoring the Domestic bank and the starter battery  this also showed  14.4 volts .

So initial tests would indicate Sterlings claims are correct . Time will tell if there is a vast improvement but it is looking good at the moment.

Regards Tony Revell   Cruiser 33  Pegatha
 


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Re: Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger
« Reply #16 on: February 18 2017, 21:14 »
But what was the charge voltage before?  You have a 2014 boat, and I imagine you have a similar Volvo set-up to my 2014 boat, which gives 14.4-14.5v charging under engine.

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Re: Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger
« Reply #17 on: February 18 2017, 23:24 »
very surprised if your alternator output is as low as that in standard form. I have the same boat as you with a D1 30 and 5* 95AH batteries (standard set up plus bow thruster) and do not have any battery charging problems. You need as tiger79 says to check what the alternator output is before linking in the Sterling. Remember Sterling made his name boosting lower voltage alternators and wet cell batteries. Your boat has neither, so why would you need it?

Jeff Jones

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Re: Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger
« Reply #18 on: February 19 2017, 15:24 »
Hi all,  I ve been following your posts with interest.

I am keen to get your thoughts and suggestions on upgrading my Bavaria 34 yacht (yom 2000) electrical power system.

Some background
I bought the boat 15months ago with a number of issues and since then have been chipping away at a long upgrade list.

This week she has had a new VP D1-30F engine and sail drive installed which replaced the original VP MD2030 - the boat is not back in the water till tomorrow. we have a swing mooring on Windermere where she stays all year.

I wanted to increase the house battery capacity for a number of reasons
1- reduce the % of charge we used between recharges and also reduce the engine running hours.
2- I have to replace the house battery anyway
3- found that the battery was dropping to 50% SOC more frequently
4- taking longer to recharge to +90% SOC from the alternator

I also plan is to replace the old house battery (2013 -140Ahr) and increase up to somewhere around 450Ahr, sized at 25% acceptance current for the batteries (with a 115A alternator) and based on our usage which is normally 2-3 days a week in summer and pretty much every other weekend in winter.

I have already removed the standard VP Split charging diode unit and installed a VSR to take care of the starting and house battery charge splitting.
Installed is also a NASA BM2 200amp battery monitor which I use as a general guide as to when and how much to recharge the batteries. its not totally accurate but as a guide its better than just a volt meter.

I also plan to install a solar panel maybe 80 - 100watts depending what size of flexible panel I can fit on the companion way slide cover (under the main boom) or on the spray hood to take care of the trickle charge..


The next step is where I would like to hear your feed back and experiences please.

ie. Using the standard VP 115A alternator (D1-30F)

1- is the inbuilt electronic regulator good enough to charge my house batteries correctly?
    ie. to return the batteries to full SOC - without excessive running of the engine

2- would you suggest an external regulator be better or smart charge A2B?
    ie with bulk charge, float and equalisation charging profiles

3- I haven't decided on which type of house batteries to install at yet - Wet cell, AGM or ?
    This very much depends on the above 1&2.

4- The spec for the VP 115A alternator is vague and says 14v, surly at 14v this will never fully recharge the battery or take extra engine running hours to return the battery back to somewhere near full charge.
    Until I get the boat back in the water I cant actual test what voltage the alternator pumps out.

Smart Chargers,
I understand the principals of how they work, but aren't they stressing the alternator or battery by forcing the higher charge rates to reduce charging times?


I am using some basic battery principals.

Don't drain below 50% SOC
Size battery bank so that you only use a small portion of the total installed Ahr  say somewhere around 30%
Battery acceptance charge is around 25% of the total installed Ahr (ie 100Ahr battery will only bulk charge @ 25amps max)



Having read lots of conflicting views on a few forums - its not clear which is the best way forward, all seem to have pros-cons.

I was also surprised that some of your house batteries setups seem quite large and the engine run times were a lot less than I would have expected.. were you not running the SOC down to anywhere near 50% SOC?

Finally, the theory of battery management is one thing - but I think real life experiences are a must better guide to which way forward ...

Thank you all

ANTREVELL

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Re: Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger
« Reply #19 on: February 19 2017, 16:17 »
From new the alternator output has never been more than 13.9volts . It is a  standard 100amp alternator which I asked to have fitted when I ordered the boat.
This is all blackmagic to me but I can only state what is happening now. The sterling instruction manual talks about a voltage amplifier in the box so I guess that it why I get more voltage on the output side than I do on the input. I do not want to run the engine for too long as the boat  is out of the water and I am told that it is not good to run an engine with no load. Not sure whether that is true.  Will have more experience once the boat is in the water. But I am pleased with the results so far. Maybe my alternator is faulty although it has never given any indication something is going wrong. I did speak with the electrician who does most of Clippers work and he seem to think my results were  normal.


Regards Tony Revell      Cruiser 33

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Re: Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger
« Reply #20 on: February 19 2017, 17:27 »

The next step is where I would like to hear your feed back and experiences please.

ie. Using the standard VP 115A alternator (D1-30F)

1- is the inbuilt electronic regulator good enough to charge my house batteries correctly?
    ie. to return the batteries to full SOC - without excessive running of the engine

2- would you suggest an external regulator be better or smart charge A2B?
    ie with bulk charge, float and equalisation charging profiles

3- I haven't decided on which type of house batteries to install at yet - Wet cell, AGM or ?
    This very much depends on the above 1&2.

4- The spec for the VP 115A alternator is vague and says 14v, surly at 14v this will never fully recharge the battery or take extra engine running hours to return the battery back to somewhere near full charge.
    Until I get the boat back in the water I cant actual test what voltage the alternator pumps out.

Smart Chargers,
I understand the principals of how they work, but aren't they stressing the alternator or battery by forcing the higher charge rates to reduce charging times?


I am using some basic battery principals.

Don't drain below 50% SOC
Size battery bank so that you only use a small portion of the total installed Ahr  say somewhere around 30%
Battery acceptance charge is around 25% of the total installed Ahr (ie 100Ahr battery will only bulk charge @ 25amps max)




The very first thing to do is measure accurately the max voltage produced by the new alternator.  With fully-charged batteries, see what voltage the alternator is producing - this will tell you what the standard regulator is set at.

Next, decide on the type of batteries you're going to use.  I favour AGM batteries, because they're very clean, have a low self-discharge rate, and they have a high charge acceptance rate (which helps to maximise effectiveness of alternator charging).

Your plan to have around 450Ah of domestic battery capacity is sound - the most cost-effective improvement you can make to a boat's electrical system is to add battery capacity.  The bigger the battery bank, the easier it will absorb the available charge, and the lower the depth of discharge for a given usage.  If you choose AGM batteries, they should be able to absorb the max output of your alternator.  If you choose wet flooded batteries, they may not be able to accept the max output, so you may need more than 450Ah.  In my last boat, I had 660Ah of maintenance-free batteries as the domestic bank, with a 90A alternator, and rarely saw much more than 60A charging.

Rather than trying to get your batteries up to 100% SOC with the engine, you should find that running them no lower than 50% and then recharging to 80-90% is more effective.

Remember that the current output from your alternator is speed dependent; typically, the max output of 115A will be delivered at around 5000rpm alternator speed, which equates to about 3100rpm engine speed.  If you're running the engine more slowly, say cruising at 2000rpm, the alternator typically won't be able to deliver more than perhaps 75A.  Adding a "smart" regulator or an A-to-B charger won't change this basic truth.

You asked about "smart" regulators stressing the alternator or the batteries.  Better systems will usually have temperature sensors on the alternator and battery, so will adapt accordingly.  But you can't force charge current into a battery, it will only accept what it wants to, based on the charge voltage, the SOC and the battery's internal resistance.  Similarly, you can't force an alternator to produce more charge current that it's rated for at a particular speed.

If you choose to have AGM batteries, the max charge voltage is usually given as 14.4v, so if your standard alternator is delivering close to that, there'll be very little benefit from fitting a "smart" regulator or an A-to-B charger.  If you choose to have wet flooded batteries, they can be charged at 14.8v, and in this situation a "smart" regulator or A-to-B charger would help to achieve the 14.8v.

As you have a new engine, it's perhaps worth noting that an A-to-B charger doesn't involve alternator modifications which may otherwise void the VP warranty, so if you need an enhanced voltage, the A-to-B could be the better choice.

Jeff Jones

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Re: Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger
« Reply #21 on: February 19 2017, 18:19 »
Tiger - thank you very helpful.

I am at a cross roads point.. your right about checking the output volts first.

If I go for wet cells a "smart charger" or AtoB seems to be needed
- to increase the charge voltage up to 14.8v for bulk charging.
- to be able to equalise the wet cells periodically.

If I go for AGM and the 'new' output volts is 14.1 - 14.4, then I guess no other modifications are really required.
- I am right is saying AGM batteries don't need to be equalised ?

Experienced with the old engine & 1000rpm, a 90Amp alternator and 1x 140Ahr battery (Wet Cells),

At 50% discharge       - 13.9 volts at 30Amps bulk charging
From >75 - 80% SOC -  14.1 volts at <10Amps dropping over time to about 3.8Amps at this point I was assuming the battery was nearly full >90% and turned the engine off.

Do you know if the VP OEM 115A alternator voltage regulator is adjustable ?


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Re: Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger
« Reply #22 on: February 19 2017, 19:27 »
Some AGM manufacturers suggest equalisation, others say it isn't necessary. I wouldn't bother.

No idea whether the OEM regulator is adjustable, perhaps you should ask VP?

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Re: Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger
« Reply #23 on: February 21 2017, 09:44 »
+1 in fact +2 for the sterling A2B units ....I fitted one on both boats with sealed lead acid batteries.

My observation is there's not much difference in initial charge times from depleted batteries .... where they excel is without the A2B the charge rate drops off as the batteries approach full charge meaning hours of engine running to get anywhere near full charge ....the A2B stops this drop off and keeps the alternator pumping out it's maximum until float is reached. There's a temperature sensor on the battery and alternator too so if either get hot, the A2B lowers the load on the alternator until it cools down.

Fit and forget and for me, money well spent.

Jonathan

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  • Boat Year: 2000
Re: Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger
« Reply #24 on: February 21 2017, 21:21 »
As I said in an earlier post...I am confused! And still am.
To confuse things more there seems to be a case to not have big banks of batteries!
As a base assume the boat uses 100 AH per day and charges once per day.
If the boat has 600 AH battery capacity the voltage will be down very little and charging will be low on amps delivered.
If the boat has 200 AH battery capacity the voltage will be well down and charging will be high on amps delivered.
Cheaper too!!! On batteries.
But the batteries will not last as long!!!
It's enough to make you jump overboard!