Author Topic: Keel damage; What to do?  (Read 3600 times)

SYJetzt

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Keel damage; What to do?
« on: October 10 2022, 11:34 »
We had a grounding with our boat this season.
It happened in a sudden thunderstorm at night, wind gusting up to 45 knots and anchor slipped.

Yacht went adrift and grounded drifting sidewards while beeing lifted up the ground wave by wave. After 15 minutes the nightmare was gone and "Jetzt" was sitting aground.

Boat was salvaged next morning by heeling her with the spinnaker halyard and engine running full throttle ahead relieving her from ground.

We lifted her out immiediatly to do an inspection and left her on the dry for 3 weeks, results were:
- Bilge is dust dry
- no visible cracks inside the boat neither on hull bottom nor on the reinforcement grid on both ends of keel
- small crack on the outside between lead keel and hull bottom (approx. 15cm long and 1 cm wide) at the aft end of keel see photo
- whole hull to keel joint (except the small crack) seems sound and was checked by tapping with a hammer
- all keel bolts are tight and dont have loose
- checked the whole hull area with a moisture meter, no findings of wet grp

We have got an offer from a yard for the repair.
They offered a full dismantling of the lead keel from the hull, where the keel bolts are unscrewed, the remaining glueed area between keel and hull has to be broken up, all surfaced to be faired and prepared for assembly. After this keel-hull joint to be glued together again and the keel bolts retightened.

We got insurance cover for the offered repair, so everything seems good so far, but....

The yard mentioned the possibility of further damages while loosening the glued layer between keel and hull (for which i dont have insurance covering at the moment). It seems possible to rip off the hull from the inner reinforcement grid, which would need a much bigger repair than the expected offered one.

My questions:
1) Is it really necessary to remove the whole keel  or is it enough to repair the small crack  by caulking the gap and fairing it instead?
2) How frequent are such subsequent damages
2) What is the function of the glue? Is it only a sealant to build up a mating surface between hull and keel or does it take additionally load (besides the keel bolts)?
3)  How will the procedure of removing the keel be? Which tools are usually used to separate keel and hull?
4) Has anybody done such a repair? Experiences?

Thank you all for your suggestions and opinions  in advance!

 
 



sy_Anniina

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Re: Keel damage; What to do?
« Reply #1 on: October 10 2022, 13:00 »
According to one Youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI9kkS3goFk, bottom grid cna be damaged by pulling the keel off.

This video (and their part-2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIBcKKcoarE) displays grid relamination on-site while the boat sits on water - a wonderfuls display of workmanship. Unfortunaterly these are in German, but based on Your boat name, I recon this would be alles gut.

BR,

Tommi
s/y Anniina

 

Yngmar

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Re: Keel damage; What to do?
« Reply #2 on: October 10 2022, 13:48 »
Sorry to hear that! Where was this, out of curiosity? Did you get hit by the big storm in Corsica this August?

It's a tricky one. I'd say the damage at the front is too significant to just fill with caulking and ignore. There's a gap now, so something has deformed permanently. It may be the frontmost bolt has broken or stretched or the hull has deformed. There's a certain plastic deformation the GRP can have without delaminating, but it would need to be inspected thoroughly. Beginnings of the stringers detaching will not be visible in the bilges, but it will be if you stick an inspection camera inside the limber holes and look from _inside_ the hollow stringers. Bit tricky, but possible.

Since the insurance is paying and for both peace of mind and considering a sale at some point in the future (even if you're not planning to now), I'd get the keel dropped. The fact that the yard warned you about further damage tells me they're not entirely ignorant of the job at least, a very good sign! :)

The keel is glued on with two-part methacrylate glue, which is as strong as epoxy and will pull off laminate if forced apart. It's meant to make the keel a permanent part of the boat on installation.

So I'd see to cutting it as much as possible. Starting at the convenient gap at the front, using an oscillating multitool with saw blade. Don't worry about damaging the bolts, they probably should be replaced anyways after this experience. After you worked your way around that as far as possible, a hacksaw blade should do the rest. The job is probably best done with the weight of the boat off the keel, so it can gently be lowered as you cut. I believe the mast must also be removed first as a sailboat without keel is not stable in a boatyard cradle with the rig up.

The keel weighs a couple tons, so the only tool you need to remove it is a strong support for it, ideally with wheels or forklift access and the travelift. Else the boat must be hauled away from the keel instead. Type "keel removal cradle" into Google image search and you'll see some examples. Once keel and hull are supported separately, the bolts can be undone inside the boat. When the boat is lifted off the keel gently (see above - while cutting, not tearing!), the keel will simply stay behind, hopefully not taking any of the laminate with it.

The rest is a thorough inspection, cleanup of the mating surfaces, possible repair of any damage inside and out and then re-attaching the keel - making sure it's on straight! :) Take plenty of photos for insurance and to reassure future buyers that the job was done properly.

The keel is then reinstalled (instruction PDF in the Download section here). The gap is faired with the squeezeout of the glue and finally sanded, primed and antifouled.

Good luck!
(formerly) Sailing Songbird  ⛵️ Bavaria 40 Ocean (2001)

SYJetzt

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Re: Keel damage; What to do?
« Reply #3 on: October 10 2022, 15:12 »
Thank you for all your explanations and suggestions!

Quote
I recon this would be alles gut.
Thank you, "kein Problem"  :)

Quote
Did you get hit by the big storm in Corsica this August?
No, it was in Croatia in August in a "Nevera" (front with violent thunderstorms from the west), and we were not alone.... many boats on the coastline in trouble, some injuries, but in our case luckily only material damage and all the crew was safe! It was pretty busy on VHF Ch.16

I'm planning to retire at end of January, so for the peace of mind i'll go for a keel removal and have a tight supervision of all actions to come.
i'm planning to unstep the mast anyways (for changing all shrouds and stays) to prepare our liveaboard life, so i will present this fact to the insurance. Maybe we can meet an arrangement for the cost.
Quote
Don't worry about damaging the bolts, they probably should be replaced anyways after this experience.
How can the bolts be removed? I assumed they have been set in while casting the lead keel!

So i fear we have to postpone our journey for a period....





 

Yngmar

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Re: Keel damage; What to do?
« Reply #4 on: October 10 2022, 15:52 »
On older Bavarias they are actual bolts with hex heads, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-RZQVA1lCU

On ours (year 2000) they are studs (threaded rod) with two locknuts on the inside. They are threaded into the keel as well and can be pulled with the locknuts (apply torque to the lower one). Else they wouldn't be replaceable at all. You can see this on the new keel photos in the installation manual, along with a nice cradle for holding the keel.

The hardest part is finding the right tools in that size (ours are size 36, if I remember right) and then finding an angle where you can get a long enough lever on there. It should actually be easier in your case, as you're dropping the keel, so you can undo one nut at a time with a big socket and worry about pulling the studs (if need be) later, where you have space to work around. 360 Nm is quite a lot of torque! :)

Hope you can get it all done this winter.
(formerly) Sailing Songbird  ⛵️ Bavaria 40 Ocean (2001)

JEN-et-ROSS

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Re: Keel damage; What to do?
« Reply #5 on: October 11 2022, 09:17 »
On older Bavarias they are actual bolts with hex heads, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-RZQVA1lCU

Thank you Yngmar, our yacht is the 38 version of the 35 in your video and obviously of similar vintage.....
I watched with trepidation as he withdrew that keel bolt, and, Oh..! the relief when he produced a pristine specimen of a sparkling stainless bolt...
I'm acutely aware that ours may not be in similar condition....
But since there are rather a lot of these bolts securing these older boats keels it's extremely reassuring.......Bill

marioxp

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Re: Keel damage; What to do?
« Reply #6 on: October 29 2022, 18:11 »
Thank you for all your explanations and suggestions!

Did you get hit by the big storm in Corsica this August?
No, it was in Croatia in August in a "Nevera" (front with violent thunderstorms from the west), and we were not alone.... many boats on the coastline in trouble, some injuries, but in our case luckily only material damage and all the crew was safe! It was pretty busy on VHF Ch.16


[/quote]
May I ask, where in Croatia?

SYJetzt

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Re: Keel damage; What to do?
« Reply #7 on: October 29 2022, 23:20 »
It happened on island Iz in the soline bay on the NW side.

marioxp

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Re: Keel damage; What to do?
« Reply #8 on: October 30 2022, 07:14 »
My boat is nearby, Kukljica island Ugljan.
 If you need some help, contact with service or something just ask.