Bavaria Yacht Info
Member Forums => Bavaria Yacht Help! => Topic started by: David Toms on November 02 2011, 16:56
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Could you assist -Bavaria 31 2008. It has an electro/hydraulic bathing platform/transom. When we press the up/down button the motor runs but the platform will not go down. there seems to be a hydraulic lock in the system which drives the pump but nothing happens. the yacht is in virtually new condition having only used this bathing platform up/down 20 times max. Clipper Marine suggest running the motor/pump and press the button to go down, and then manually push the platform at the same time. This does not work. They also say that the two operating cylinders may be sticking which I think is a crazy notion. Would appreciate any advice as to how we can overcome this problem. Perhaps some of you have this problem also. Thank you.
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HI,
No good news for you,sorry.
I own a 38 Cruiser with that electric platform which is a nightmare since new.
The parts (2 electric arms) are VERY expensive and don't last too long so I'm using a rope and waiting for a better idea...
If you get any please share.
IMHO this is a huge glich by Bavaria,the whole platform is badly made and I feel very unsafe using it.
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seems to be a hydraulic lock in the system which drives the pump but nothing happens...
Any seepage of hydraulic fluid? Is there a top-up reservoir?
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I haven't heard Bavaria chiming in on any of the problems I've read hear. I'm sure the are aware of this forum by now. What's up with that?????
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I haven't heard Bavaria chiming in on any of the problems I've read hear. I'm sure the are aware of this forum by now.
I'm not sure if Bavaria are aware of the forum yet, although Clipper Marine are. Even so, it is unlikely that they would be able to spare the resources to have someone monitor the forum. If enough forum members contact them, perhaps they would take an interest.
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Maybe if we can show Bavaria how many boat owners think their electric bathing platform idea was a very bad one they'll come up with a better solution?
So,how many boat owners hate this platform? Lets make a survay?
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I think the best solution here was to remove the electric mechanism and just counterweight it, as they have on the 2010+ 32/33 models. Works fine. Simple is best.
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2008 38 Cruiser,SAME problem almost since new!
NO use buying new arms/motors,they are expensive @#&$...!
I'm using a rope for up/down and put 2 pieaces of chain to replace the electric arms for platform security...
A VERY poor example of "German engineering"!
Lets send a group letter to Bav with ALL our problems with that platform and ask for a solution?
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So...
Will someone with better English then mine compose a letter to Bav?
I'm ready to send it with all our names & boat VIN's and try to push this issue forward.
OR all we'll do is complane here to each other ? :)))
Happy New Year.
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Since NO one replyed I wrote to Bav myself...
Hope you'll find it useful...I didn't :(
thank you for your inquiry. According to my experience as a yacht technician a malfunction of a transom bathing platform sometimes may result from a lack of synchronization.
This can happen if the technical inspection of the boat is not been arried out periodically by a professional (first service after ½ year) to align and synchronize the drives after the materials settled and the yacht was rigged.
The two electrical drives do not work exactly parallel as long as they are not lined out and synchronized correctly. This process is carried out during production of a Bavaria Sailing Yacht, but after a few month the components have settled and should be lined out again once more. This is one of the reasons why Bavaria initialized the periodical service.
If the drive rods are not lined out and synchronized correctly this can eventually lead to a difference in power consumption between the drives which may result into shutdown of the electronic control because of higher ampere than the end switch is tolerating as a result of the two drives working against each other. This means that your push the button to open the transom and after moving a few centimeters (inch) the bathing platform stops. In that case you can open the platform by pushing the button in the opposite direction (up) shortly until the bathing platform moves up a fraction and then continue to push the button down. Eventually this process has to be repeated to fully open the platform. This is to be understood as a compromise until the installation is lined out and synchronized correctly.
This is not a construction based failure. The cases from which we know are limited and usually appear on those ships where the periodical qualified service has not been carried out. If you only look at the expressions in an internet forum it seems like many people have the same problem, but in fact ONLY the people who have that problem are reacting there. The majority of Bavaria owners who?s bathing platforms are working properly usually do not respond in public to tell that their material is doing fine.
In most cases the following advice cures the unwanted stopping of the platform while you push the up/down button.
1 Take the rings and the bolts out of the outer ends of the drive while the platform is open (horizontal).
2 Push the button to let the drives completely go out until they get stopped by the end shut off.
3 Turn the thinner end rods clockwise (in) or anticlockwise (out) until the bolts fit freely into their holes at the fittings on top of the bathing platform.
4 If there is not enough way you can also adjust the distance on the other end where the electric drives are connected to the cockpit floor.
5 Put the bolts and rings back and make sure the bolts can be moved sideways without resistance (free play).
Additionally the drives may be opened at the electrical motor side (grey cover) and the cover thread and rubber seal can be reprotected with grease to keep moisture out. It is also possible to turnout the smaller end rods of the drives completely to grease the spindles. This should be self evident part of every periodical service of all electrical/mechanical parts, especially when in maritime use.
Another way to improve the function of the platform drives is to adjust the power. The control box for the platform drives has 4 micro switches which can be adjusted from 4.5 to 5.0 ampere closing (up) power. This might be a possibility in colder surroundings or in the colder season when the mechanical parts and grease create more resistance.
Please refer to the following diagram for adjustments:
Translation: Schalterstellung = switch position / Segelboot = Sailboat / Ausgang = Exit / Auf = open / Zu = close
If one wants? to change to a mechanical solution our dealers offer a conversion kit for most models like we offered as standard when electric operation of the bathing platform became an optional feature. Another alternative may be the use of a Pulley (block and tackle) and take out the electric drives.
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Hello people,
Do you know from where I can buy the transom actuators please? I need one for my Bavaria 38.
Thanks in advance
Jezz
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I am afraid that Bavaria is the ONLY source for them.
I could not find the manufacturer for this poorly made setting anywhere.
My advise is save your hundreds of euros, THIS thing is hopeless and will last only for a season or two max.
This is the ONLY part of my boat I really hate!
>:(
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I have same problems with the bathing platform .
Could somebody point me to Bavaria manual conversion kit .
Kind regards
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I can post a photo of a conversion to pulleys that is a work in progress. Found that around 8:1 is needed to rais and lower without busting ones' ring! Just need to make up some strops of the correct length to hide the pulleys a bit and so they do not chafe on the lift up floor.
Cheers
Mark Hutton
Synergy
B 40 2009
PS the reason for replacing is I had one electric ram fail. Got some water in it and burnt out - fancy that! Cost to replace is around $550 AUD. cost of pulleys etc to date $180AUD
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Could you post a pic. I think I will go down the same route.
I have 2010 B34. Same problem with mine , one has completely failed. I have written to bavaria for a manual system but to date they have not replied. (poor)
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YES!
Pictures and more info please.
Lets solve this bug ourselves. Bavaria will not help us here.
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Would it be possible to retro-fit the gas strut hinges from the current Cruiser range? My platform lifts with fingertip ease.
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Yeah, that "fingertip ease" on the new cruiser line is painful for those of us with the old design flaw to see Tiger79! I seem to recall, from when I first saw the new cruisers, that the gas struts would not be easily retrofitted. But perhaps you can upload a few pics of your transom to help us poor sods with the old ones see?
One thing I'd suggest anyone with the old system doing (which was recommended to me by the dealer here) is disconnecting the power to one arm and disconnecting the cotter pin such that only one arm is moving the transom up and down. This eliminates the issue of any unsynch between the arms and resulting noise/stutter/stopping and also leaves a back up arm for when one corrodes (as they are prone to) and fails. Things work WAY better with just one arm. The arms are not really part of the weight bearing anyway when the gate is down (which is also poor and something to back up with webbing off the rail as I know one person who had the tabs fail such that the gate was beyond 90 degrees). I did this one arm approach for 3 seasons before the arm failed (and was badly corroded inside) and I went to the other arm. I've also bought one backup arm from Bavaria (about $250) that I have at home, as I've been putting off and avoiding going to a fully manual system.
Hope this suggestion is helpful. It's clear from all the rants about this over the years that Bavaria is not feeing obligated to properly solve this, which is really annoying. By the way, has anyone else noticed that their transom gate is waterlogged? You can only tell when the arms are disconnected and you lift/lower it by hand and hear sloshing (plus feel the weight). I was horrified to discover this last year (not sure where the ingress was from, perhaps the holes for the boarding ladder) and have a "to do" on fixing this...probably involving drilling a couple of drainage holes on the underside. Anyone else out there facing the same, and any ideas for dealing with it?
Riyad
Vancouver, Canada
s/v "Battuta" (2009 B31 Cruiser)
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But perhaps you can upload a few pics of your transom to help us poor sods with the old ones see?
There's not much to see, I imagine the gas struts are hidden inside the platform. Twin stainless wire strops take the weight of the lowered platform.
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/pvbpics/platform_zpso4jhuvqs.jpg)
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Thanks for the pic. That's a really sweet system and great looking stern. Wanna trade?
I suppose one might be able to do something similar using gas struts to replace the motor arms. Getting the perfect size could be a challenge.
I'll noodle on this a bit more next time I have the swim grid down. Thanks again.
Riyad
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"The arms are not really part of the weight bearing anyway when the gate is down (which is also poor and something to back up with webbing off the rail as I know one person who had the tabs fail such that the gate was beyond 90 degrees)"
VERY unsafe to use the gate with only ONE arm!
I tried it in the past and almost fell into the water when the plastic base of the arm broke and the gate went down over the 2 small metal stoppers.
I still think that Bavaria should offer us a better solution for this poorly and dangerously designed part!
>:(
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I wonder if a couple of Instatrim trim tab cylinders could be adapted in parallel?
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Well Solar, we may simply have to agree to disagree on this one. When the gate is fully down, those two little metal tabs are taking all the load, albeit in a terribly designed and cantilevered manner which is why I advise the webbing to offset some of the load onto the rail (regardless of whether you use one arm or two...I did this for 2 years while I was using both arms).
The arms aren't designed or capable of taking much load, which is why the gate needs to be fully onto the tabs to offset the arms being loaded and breaking as yours did. I've used one arm for years with zero problems, as their only real function is to lower and raise the swim grid.
As I mentioned, it was the Bavaria dealer here who suggested this approach to me, and I seem to recall it was Bavaria in Germany who told him of this approach. I'd encourage any of you with the old gates to try it and see what you think; you'll double the life of your motorized transom system plus see a more quiet and smooth up/down operation.
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Dear Battuta,
With ALL due respect to your ONE ARM suggestions...
It is like a suggestion to a 4 cylinder car owner to use only 2 of them to extend his motor life time...
To put 2 people with some gear in their hands {200+kg}on that heavy gate {40+kg}hoping those 2 small soft metal side stoppers to hold ALL that weight safely above the open water below...well good luck with that!
I hope you will agree that we all deserve a better example of German engineering from our Bavaria Yachts?
The sad fact that after so many years of ownership we still do not have one is partly OUR fault!
Would we except such a glitch from our car manufactures? I do not think so!
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Hey Solar,
Yup, I agree with your criticism of Bavaria on this.
But I disagree with your analogy and concerns about using one arm for the reasons I've previously explained (and the fact I've done it for 3 years with no problems). Those tabs are massively thick stainless steel and their purpose is to take all the load, poorly designed as that is. I know it's poorly designed because the only other person with a B31 in Canada had his tabs rotate and bend (despite both motor arms being used, which just goes to show what little strength they add) such that his grid slowly worked its way down to beyond 90 degrees. That's when both of us started using the webbing/strap system to reduce loading on those tabs, which I'd urge you to do too even if you keep both your motor arms attached.
Hope this perspective is helpful. But don't hold your breath for Bavaria to solve all this. Eventually I'm just going to modify things to a fully manual system. Just too lazy right now while the arms continue to work.
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When the 2 electric actuators are not fully synchronized, they see perhaps more load than one is doing the job. Many Bavaria owners in the Netherlands with this transom system have removed one actuator and are happy.
Also corrosion sometimes seems to be a problem according the BZc forum.
Ger
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Hi all
I have had a reply from Bavaria re manual system.
The price is 800 euro , no vat or shipping included.
What do you all think?
(http://)
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Hi,
MOST of the parts in the pictures we already have. Why replace?
The only NEW parts I can see are that slim black gas? actuator and a new port side upper stopper, Can they be purchased separately? installation instructions? price?
I also wonder how much easier it will be to pull/push that very heavy gate with its help?
Can you share more info please?
???
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Solar.
that was all the info I got from Bavaria .
I will write back to Bavaria asking for a bit more info.
I think most of the parts have been modified from the original.
It does give me a few ideas for my own system , would like to see how the gas strut fits into the system.
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Hey DT,
Did you hear anything more from Bavaria on the details of the upgrade or the gas struts?
And what did you decide to do?
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Battula
Been a bit busy lately have have put the transom on hold. I spoke with the Aussi Bavaria rep he suggested that having one ram working will be
sufficient for the medium term.
Will post any updates.
DT
Soliloquy B34
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Hi Solar,
All the parts for the gas strut kit are new, so all are needed. Starting from the top left.
The shiny and dull cheek plates are in pairs, the shiny one is outside and the dull one is its mate inside the transom.
Below that is the L-piece, the round shaft goes through the new cheek plates and into the new door side rail in the centre of photo. A long bolt is screwed from inside the transom into the door side rail.
The square on the end of the shaft will engage into a similar square in the door side rail.
The gas strut is mounted inside the transom and is (probably) between the arm of the L-piece and the backing piece for the door close latch.
I just realised too that I promised a photo of the pulley system I have fitted. Sorry I have been a bit distracted, I?ll post after I have a photo on the weekend. It looks better now too with dynema strops!
Cheers
Mark
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Hello all
Still considering what to do about this problem.
I haven't recontacted Bavaria re the kit as the cost to import to Aust (end of the earth) make it a costly exercise. The price is reasonable but still doesn't reflect the responsibility they should feel for such a problematic design.
Penguin Engineering do replacement electro/hydro rams , perhaps a better quality build , I have considered just using one of those.
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HI All,
Attached photos of the pulley modification to the bathing platform rams- replacement with a neat pulley system. Well I think that it is neat ;)
(http://DSCN0465.jpg)
(http://DSCN0466.jpg)
(http://DSCN0467.jpg)
(http://DSCN0468.jpg)
Cheers
Mark Hutton
Synergy B40
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that looks really nice tidy job.
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Really awesome job Mark, and great engineering to think this up! Way slicker then the externally running manual modifications I've seen out here.
A few questions:
1. What does the control end of the line run through off the pushpit rail?
2. How "heavy" does all this feel when lowering/raising the gate? Enough mechanical advantage?
3. Any concerns with the gate down only being supported by the metal tabs, or do you keep enough tension in the control line that the system too carries some of the load?
4. Are you able to upload a photo showing how things look with the gate closed?
Riyad
s/v Battuta (2009 B31)
Vancouver, Canada
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Battuta,
Control end is only tied off to the pushpit rail. Also used to provide a bit more initial pull when starting the lift.
Weight of the operation is OK for me, bit too much to start for my wife. The last lead is on the outboard handle (port side) this provides a slight upward lift at the beginning when there is only a small lever to start the lift. (greatest pull required)
I'm confident that the two welded tabs for holding the platform are adequate to support the weight of me and an outboard motor. I have considered putting a stopper knot in teh end so some of the weight is taken on the pulley but have not yet.
I did not take a photo of the gate in the raised position as the pulleys disappear and only the free end and the pulley on the handle are visible. I have put a photo with the helm platform down.
Cheers
Mark Hutton
Synergy
B40
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Revisiting this again as my remaining ram has failed . Looking again at the photos Mark put up , I think I will go that way.
Did notice beer top in the photo sitting on the edge of the cockpit floor , also planning this. :)
DT
Soliloquy B34
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I had a 2010 Cruiser 35 with the same problem. Solved it with a six to one tackle and disconnected the rams completely. Used a strop to hold the platform horizontal. Worked fine. I agree that these systems were not fit for purpose
Not sure it helps but here are photos of my platform on our Vision 46 In addition to the cruiser range gas filled pistons helping the manual raise there are also two cables to support the platform. Again this works fine. I was relieved on ordering the boat that the swim platform was manual like my 2005 cruiser 42 ....
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Thanks Kibo
I'm considering using a reverse gas strut or traction strut in place of one ram . My 34 is not that heavy to pull up manually even without the traction strut. Then using the remaining strut location as a means of locking it into place when up, with a exact length of dyeema cord and a shackle.
Electrically I'll be happier not having a system ( transom ) connected to the hot battery bus.
How does your beautiful new transom lock into place when up ?
Cheers David
Soliloquy B34/2009
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Hi DT
It's a very simple sprung bolt very similar to a cockpit locker catch that slides onto a striker plate and receiver key way on the side of the swim platform. Example of simpler is better
The photo isn't great but hopefully it answers the question
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I have a Bav 38 , built in Dec 2009 ( shown as 2010 product model) that has a very good, manual bathing platform arrangement.
After the problems with the previous models, the 2009 model reverted to a simple catch release and a single line to open and close the platform. No pulleys required. My boat still has the same mouldings and cover over where the hydraulics were installed in the previous models.
I have no problem with this simple system and it requires no force to operate. I merely pull the line to release the catch and gently push the platform down with my foot. To raise, I just pull on the single line. The system installed on my boat has been reliable and simple. I have no idea why Bavaria have reintroduced hydraulic rams on the later models.
Without looking at the boats with the hydraulic rams I can't comment on whether it is easy to convert to the system installed in the 2009( 2010) models. Obviously, Bavaria though the "fix" they fitted to the 2009 model boats was easy, cheap and quick to implement.
The question to Bavaria should be, "What is required to convert from the hydraulic system to the manual system installed in 2009 and is it cost effective.
Craig
"Shirley Valentine"
Gold Coast
Australia
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Hi Graig
My B34 is exactly the same age. In previous posts I have put the Bavaria manual system which can be fitted however it is just too dear at 800 euro plus postage .
You might find there is a gas ram inside the swim platform as is shown on the manual kit posted on this thread, maybe .
DT
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Just pulled apart my transom ram .
Very poor quality to be frank . Electro mechanical style , poor water seals , both of them have failed due to water ingestion. The circuit boards having gone.
I would suggest anybody owning one replace rubber O ring covering motor 30 second job . If your more inclined remove motor and regrease worn drive 15 minutes .
I wonder if these are original , I would assume so , age of boat condition etc . I thought they where advertised as electo hydraulic.
Only thing hydraulic about these, is the trapped water .........dad joke.
DT
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I have a 2009 Bav 38, manufactured in Dec 2009, launched in February 2010..
This is the model put out by Bavaria after they recognised a problem with the hydraulic arms on the previous models.
The 2009 Bav 38 still has the mouldings to allow the hydraulic arms to be fitted.
As a quick fix, the 2009 model has a mechanical system that is very easy to use and appears to have no problems. I merely pull a line to release the holding catch and push the platform down with my foot. I pull on a single line to raise the platform. Minimal force required.
I don't know, but suggest that Bavaria may be able to supply the conversion kit.
Craig
"Shirley Valentine"
Gold Coast
Australia
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Hi DT,
Just catching up with the conversation. Thought I had tidied up all the beer tops, on closer inspection, I believe it to be the padeye for the cockpit jackstay.
For holding the platform up I have fitted a pair of slide bolts that go into the nylon blocks. I also tighten and tie off the uphaul tackle. Do not regret removing the electrical actuators. I do have a spare one if anyone is interested!
Cheers
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I rigged up a very simple temporary system which works well enough so I'm tempted not to go back to actuators as well. Thought activated, carbohydrate powered pulley system , hard to beat.
Mark is that padeye full strength ? :)
I have rebuild the actuator circuit board but yet to test it.
Regards all
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The padeye is full strength, cause I use it for the jackstay in the cockpit. There are three of them so there is a triangle around the table in teh cockpit.
Cheers