Bavaria Yacht Info
Member Forums => Bavaria Yacht Help! => Topic started by: Harveyhall on August 26 2016, 02:34
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Bavaria 36 2005 - Has anyone else had a very difficult time to roll in the headsail in 10 to 15 knots of wind. I am head to windward at the time of furling, if I try pulling the line from the foredeck it is no problem. The friction on the line under the stanchion bases seems to be more than desired.
Is anyone else had that problem and what is your solution?
I had installed a Harken system on previous boats and worked well.
Thanks
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There is a fair bit of friction on the furling line, if it is the type where the line merely passes through the hole at the base of the stanchion. Some boats I've seen have a pulley arrangement attached to the base of the stanchions. I don't recommend this as it tends to be a good place to collide with your toes.
Only solutions I can recommend are to either, Use the winch, or reduce the friction by putting in a smaller diameter furling line.
Craig
"Shirley Valentine"
Gold Coast
Australia
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Bavaria 36 2005 - Has anyone else had a very difficult time to roll in the headsail in 10 to 15 knots of wind. I am head to windward at the time of furling, if I try pulling the line from the foredeck it is no problem. The friction on the line under the station bases seems to be more than desired.
I know of two areas where problems can occur that result in difficulty in furling the headsail, though there may be others.
Firstly if the head of the foresail is not as high up as it should be, this will result in the angle between the halyard and the forestay being too small. Ideally this angle should be as large as possible in order to prevent a halyard wrap. In the event of the halyard wrapping around the forestay and the foil used for the furling mechanism, this will result in so much friction that furling the headsail becomes impossible. This situation can occur if the length of the headsail between the head and the tack is not quite long enough, and you have simply shackled or secured the tack to the attachment point on the furling mechanism without looking to see if the sail could go higher. In this instance I suggest you unfurl the sail, release the tack and pull on the halyard to see if the sail will go higher. If it does, you can temporarily make a strop out of several turns of small cord to enable the tack to be resecured to the furling mechanism, and that should make a very big difference.
The second possibility is that within the Furlex furling mechanism on my boat, there is a metal Spring device which fits around the furling drum and which I think is intended to keep the turns of the furling cord as neat and compact as possible. On one occasion this bent inwards reducing the amount of space available and which also resulted in friction making the operation of furling very difficult. So it's worth taking the stainless cover off, in order to check the internals are in good order. This can be done without removing the sail, but be careful not to drop any of the securing screws which are otherwise bound to cause a splash.
As for using a winch to pull in the furling cord, I wouldn't recommend doing that, it is possible to put so much effort into the winch that the furling line will break. My boat used to go out on charter, prior to and just after I bought it, and that's how I know. It also resulted in a lot of other damage which is another story altogether !!
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According to Selden manual and to my Bavaria service man in Slovenia one must grease the furler and the halyard swivel. I did as good as possible (only furler) and it improved a bit. I could not roll in by hand before, now it works at least in lighter winds.
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I had the same problem. Check that the sheaves in the stanchion blocks are rolling freely and not distorted. I decided to get my sheaves replaced by the manufacturer (Niro Petersen) using sheaves with ball-bearings. Much cheaper than replacement.
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Going through the stanchion bases usually works well, and ass suggested lubricating the bearings as in the Selden manual will make furling easier. However, there are a number of different Stanchion Blocks on the market such as Barton and Spinlock with either solid eyes or sheaves. You can get them from any decent chandler or from mail order firms.
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However, there are a number of different Stanchion Blocks on the market such as Barton and Spinlock with either solid eyes or sheaves. You can get them from any decent chandler or from mail order firms.
The best stanchion blocks are by Harken, with twin ball bearing sheaves, and the furling line goes outboard of the stanchion. I fitted them on my last boat, and they were a good improvement.
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The best stanchion blocks are by Harken, with twin ball bearing sheaves, and the furling line goes outboard of the stanchion. I fitted them on my last boat, and they were a good improvement.
I got a set of these, but I couldn't make them work. They move the line outside the stanchions, which is great. However it needs to come inside at some point and my only option was in the gate.
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I had exactly the same problem on our B34/2001 eventually resulting in a big hoot from a large ferry. After a lot of head scratching, I found four main causes, none of which (apart from #3) were big problems but collectively made going to the bow and hand reefing the only way to do it at all. Now I've sorted all of them out, I can stay in the cockpit and reef with one hand.
With the jib off -
1. ensure the reefing gear is lubricated and running smoothly, top and bottom.
2. make sure the roller foil is straight (i.e. the forestay is tensioned correctly). Tighten the backstay if there's any sag or the whole thing flops like a skipping rope and takes energy out of your reefing effort. Hoist the jib as normal, ensuring the luff is taut and halyard has no slack. If the foil has two slots, use the leading one in the direction of rotation.
3. the 'cupped hands' that Salty mentions are attached to the outer cover and are to ensure the reefing cord stays tight to the drum for those occasions when the breeze pulls the sail out sharply and the cord is snatched into the drum. On mine (Furlex 200) there is, I think, a design fault in that the metal bar 'fingertips' are held by curved springy plastic that have a sharp angle on their edge just inside the bar. This occasionally (regularly for me) allows a little loop of the cord to get trapped between the springy plastic and the drum top. I took a Stanley knife to this and pared it back so it became smooth, allowing any trapped loops to slide back over the 'fingertips' onto the drum when you pulled the cord. Hasn't jammed since. I will try to photograph the modification if anyone is interested.
4. my reefing line blocks are attached to the stanchion bases apart from the one nearest the bow. The resulting shallow angle from the block into the drum favours the cord wrapping nearer the top of the drum, exacerbating point 3 above. I put a stanchion bullseye at the bottom of the pulpit leg to bring the angle closer to 90deg from the drum. True, this brings the line nearer to the bow cleat but if I'm using one then I'm not using the other so it's not been a problem so far.
Hope this helps.
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I would like to see your model as i have had mine jam exactly as described
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I would like to see your model as i have had mine jam exactly as described
Should be able to get down some time this w/e so will upload photo...
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Thanks for your suggestions. I will start by looking at lubricating and go from there.
Cheers
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... With the jib off -
1. ensure the reefing gear is lubricated and running smoothly, top and bottom.
2. make sure the roller foil is straight (i.e. the forestay is tensioned correctly)...
I've started a new topic with questions about the above
http://www.bavariayacht.info/forum/index.php/topic,1549.0.html
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...4. my reefing line blocks are attached to the stanchion bases apart from the one nearest the bow...
Update to point #8 above - I went and checked today and this isn't accurate :-[ . There IS a block on the one nearest the bow but it's still too far away and the comment about the angle being too shallow remains true, hence the bullseye on the pulpit leg. I'll try for photos this w/e...
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in my experience the jib halyard has too much tension on it.
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in my experience the jib halyard has too much tension on it.
Two things that I know of that can cause this,
1. A halyard wrap as I described in my earlier posting and
2. Dirt in the luff groove.
Last winter on shore, the boat next to me had its antifouling area all blasted off before being copper coated. Nice for them, but the crud from the blasting ended up all over everyone else's boats, including inside the luff grooves in the foil of my Furlex system where it stuck. Hoisting my head sail a week or two later I discovered just what a pain my neighbours newly copper coated bottom was going to be. Only by running something up and down inside that groove with copious amounts of washing up liquid and water was I able to clean it sufficiently to ease the amount of tension on the otherwise bar tight violin string, sorry, I meant halyard, sufficient to permit the headsail to be fitted.
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I have made a great improvement to friction by fitting a block and jammer to the stanchion base. There is now a better angle to haul in from the helm or crew.
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that is really neat, MoodyMike. I think I'll do the same... :tbu
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I have made a great improvement to friction by fitting a block and jammer to the stanchion base. There is now a better angle to haul in from the helm or crew.
That looks convincing :tbu. Bummer, another project.
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Way back in the discussion someone mentioned the furling line being snatched when there is a bit of wind in the jib. It is fairly critical to keep a bit of tension on the furling line when unfurling the jib so it winds on to the furling drum. This ensures that the line layers properly and when you tension it to furl the jib the line does not jamb itself in the drum.
Cheers
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Where does that end-block come from?
http://www.bavariayacht.info/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1544.0;attach=1859;image
Looks like some expensive gadget.
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Block is from seldon App £45. Important bit is the stanchion mount from Harken app £27. There are other blocks but they must fit the diameter of the block shaft.
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Way back in the discussion someone mentioned the furling line being snatched when there is a bit of wind in the jib. It is fairly critical to keep a bit of tension on the furling line when unfurling the jib so it winds on to the furling drum. This ensures that the line layers properly and when you tension it to furl the jib the line does not jamb itself in the drum.
Hi Mirror
Yeah, that was me and I agree with you. However, it's sometimes difficult to have enough hands (or feet) free to snub the line when solo. I am sure that the 'cupped hands' around the spool is designed exactly for that purpose and it mainly works. However, the current design means that if loops of line get flicked up between the spool and the top but are trapped by the 'fingers', in my view it's a design fault. If a reefing line is required to be tensioned before it spools properly then that should be part of the design, not reliant on the operator. In fact, a possible solution would be MoodyMike's pushpit mounted gizmo but with a biased block, i.e. spin freely when reefing in but with restricted movement when unfurling that would apply a little drag on the line as it's being pulled onto the drum. No idea if one of those exists but it might work. Another thought would be springy fingers mounted vertically outside the drum casing, either side of the line entry point. The faster the line is spooled in, the more drag from the fingers.
Anyway, I'm off to the boat in a minute (first chance for days) so will photo the mods as promised previously.
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Herewith, my modification to the internal spring mechanism for the Furlex 200S. In the photo, you can see the 'cupped hands' that are mounted inside the outer drum cover of the Furlex and my cutaway. The 'fingertips' are metal bars mounted on flat springs. I have tried to do a sketch of the original shape and the bits I cut off. It's not very good but will give an idea. Note: if you take off the cover, be careful with the screw at the front. The nut is loosely held in the cover and can fall out easily. Obviously, it'll then go straight over the side. On reassembly, I tacked mine in place with a spot of sealant but anything will do. Note also that the front screw is slightly longer than the two at the sides.
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Thanks Mark. You have very accurately described the furling issue that I often experience, and the solution. :)
John
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Would that thing do the job?
http://www.harken.com/productdetail.aspx?id=4745&taxid=544
expensive though (like everything for a boat).
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Well spotted, Horst. That's exactly what's needed. Should be fitted as standard to all Bavs. You're right, it is expensive but when measured against the potential cost of MoodyMike's setup, it's not that much more. However, I do like the cam cleat on his version. What we need is a combination of the two (and the bankloan to pay for it!).
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I use a single spinlock WL/2 to guide the line onto the drum (https://www.spinlock.co.uk/en-us/categories/organisers-1/product_groups/wl - the "sheave" version). Works pretty well, and cheaper than harken.
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I might get that Harken Ratchet Block, but put it at the front as first roller after the Furlex. By that anything else can remain as is.
Project for next season...needs budget approval by head of sailing committee ;) or a sneaky purchase during winter season.
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I might get that Harken Ratchet Block, but put it at the front as first roller after the Furlex...
I've got an unused one, 90% of cheapest price you can find.
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Sent you PM.
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For the people who want another fix to the issue.
Line goes over combing to winch, works fine for me the kast 6 years.
Odysseus
Bav 38
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....................As for using a winch to pull in the furling cord, I wouldn't recommend doing that, it is possible to put so much effort into the winch that the furling line will break. My boat used to go out on charter, prior to and just after I bought it, and that's how I know. It also resulted in a lot of other damage which is another story altogether !!
I mentioned about using a winch in reply no 2 to this thread, and the dangers of putting too much effort into the winch. My boat used to go out on charter, and the couple who chartered it got caught out in bad weather and resorted to winching in the furling line. The line was in good condition, but for unknown reasons the "finger tips" on one of the "cupped hands" that "Mark the Bike" wrote about had curled over, and the Furlex 200 system jammed in that direction. They lead the line to the winch and the in due course with all the effort they applied, the furling line broke. This allowed the sail to unfurl and in the worsening weather and with an uncontrollable sail they untied the knots in the ends of the Genoa sheets allowing the sheets and the sail to fly uncontrolledly. The sheets went over the top of the mast in the wind, taking the VHF antenna and the wind instrument with them and the sail was shredded during the bad weather. In their initial haste to deal with the situation the helmsperson stood up, forgetting that the seat had not been resecured since their last port call, and so they had to say goodbye to it. The bad weather tore one of the windows out of the sprayhood, and when they did eventually find a port where they could shelter, the short lead via the starboard fairlead and a short steep swell resulted in the fairlead joining the helmsmans seat. Okay, some of that might not be directly attributable to using a winch to haul in the furling line, but if a winch is used on something that was never intended to be winched, there is a very real risk of using too much effort and destroying the job rather than improving the situation.
My point is that if you have to use a winch to haul in the furling line, then it's likely there is a problem elsewhere that has been missed and which you need to find and fix.
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...line goes over coaming to winch...
Yes, that's what I ended up doing but still had a jam-up every now and again so it did need further investigation. I also like to keep a loop of jib sheet round the winch to reduce flogging as it unwinds but having the reefing line on as well had potential for more excitement than I was prepared for.
Salty - I think that would be more exciting than I would ever wish for. From your description, it sounds as though they had the same 'loop round the fingertips' that I had but winching it would be enough to pull the cupped hand back on itself and from that point on it would be immoveable. I'm not surprised the line broke. p.s. I assume they haven't been back?
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...Salty - I think that would be more exciting than I would ever wish for. From your description, it sounds as though they had the same 'loop round the fingertips' that I had but winching it would be enough to pull the cupped hand back on itself and from that point on it would be immoveable. I'm not surprised the line broke. p.s. I assume they haven't been back?
...more excitingt than I could ever wish for.
Yes, but amongst other things I always take a spare pair of underpants with me when I go sailing !!
.....I assume they haven't been back?
Well they didn't get much chance, because after putting everything back in order, the next but one set of charterers hired two boats from the charter firm, and then played silly beggars heading towards each other to see who would blink first. My boat ended up with a hole in the bow while the other had the side flex inwards during the collision which wrecked some of its internal furniture. At that point my boat was withdrawn from chartering instantly and permanently.
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Hi Mark, I have never experienced the furling line getting caught between the spool/drum and the fingers/cup. When unfurling the jib I generally put 1 - 2 turns on the primary winch to provide a bit of friction, depending upon the wind strength. Also do a lot of single handed sailing.
Also noted the discussion on the lead from the furler to the first stanchion. I use a ring floating on a short loop of dynema which I spliced up for myself. It can just be seen on the aft leg of the pulpit.
Cheers
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Hi Mark
That looks like a nice job, I like the idea of the ring floating rather than fixed to allow the spool to fill uniformly, unlike my fixed bullseye. It does look as though the port-side leg of your pulpit is a little further forward than mine so you are able to be a little higher.
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Hi Mark, Tha is also the good thing about having the floating ring on what is effectively a prussic loop. It can be slid up and down the rail to get the best lead angle.
Cheers
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Hi Mark, Tha is also the good thing about having the floating ring on what is effectively a prussic loop. It can be slid up and down the rail to get the best lead angle.
Agreed. I think the bullseye's days are numbered as it can only be used at the bottom of the pulpit leg or it would be angled down too much. Perhaps I can reuse the bullseye at the back somewhere.
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Selden has articulated stanchion blocks (https://www.svb24.com/en/furlex-fairlead-and-stanchion-block.html):
(https://www.svb24.com/media/117503/images/large/image_2015-09-18--6.jpg)
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That's great, Yngmar. Thanks for the info.
An update if it's of any interest - after my changes listed above, it was EASY (honestly) to furl in a F7 over the w/e. Yes, the line was snatched out of my hand, but it didn't jam (apart from flicking the line over the bow and around the anchor!). The drum remained free. First time I've tried it in a stronger breeze and it worked a treat. :tbu
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GREAT news
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My bav39 has the furling line through the stanchion base but I think it's just a hole there - I always have to bit of effort into furling, going to have to look at upgrading if it makes for an effortless furl
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My bav39 has the furling line through the stanchion base but I think it's just a hole there - I always have to bit of effort into furling, going to have to look at upgrading if it makes for an effortless furl
Having the little blocks attached to the stanchion bases makes a big difference and they're reasonably cheap. The holes in the stanchion bases aren't polished so the line will drag even more. Definitely worth it if you do nothing else.
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Gents, good tips on this topic, much appreciated!
I am having issues also, first attributed to friction in the stanchion guides but upon later investigation it seems i am getting a messy wind on the spool, regardless of keeping the furling line under friction during unfurling. It looks like it's winding "cross way" and getting caught over the fingers as one side of the coil gets larger.
Planning to replace the line and do a visual inspection on the furling drum to see what's going on.
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Aaaand the results...
The cup-shaped plastic arround the spool is broken (from before). Other half maybe long time ago overboard. Not sure if it will help to replace with a new original spare.
Other parts look a bit tired also with some strange gaps and clearances but they will get sorted in time. Bearings need lubrication for sure.
Also, the line is washed and shampooed to regain some softness. Fingers crossed ..
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I think it should help to replace the missing spring plate. Those two together push the rope into shape as it gets wound onto the reel and prevent it crossing over and making a messy furl.
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Difficult to get Selden spare parts in my area so might have to deal with some DIY solution. Contemplating on adding a "feeding block" to guide the line at a better angle to the drum as it does not look too good coming from the forward stanchion base (original design).
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Hi Sorin,
Refer to my post of 12SEP16, use a ring and loop on the pulpit for the final lead.
Cheers
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For the past few days i have tried using guides and a block and it seems to be a little bit better although not as easy as as it should. Bearings are lubricated, line was washed and now more flexible but the only thing missing is the spring.
To be fair, most of the times if there is some resistance in the furling line while wrapping on the drum, the coils are spread more evenly and lead to less snags.
I think it's up to adjusting forestay, backstay and the jib halyard.
Any recomandations on where to start?
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Guide for setting up rigging here seldenmast.com/files/1587561657/595-540-E.pdf
You will also find maintenance instructions for Furlex on the same site.
Smooth running of the furling line is not really dependent on rig setup. Your difficulty is probably related to the lack of the shroud around the drum. It is there for a purpose, which is to help the rope run properly. Replace that and I think much of your problem will be solved. Keeping some tension on the line when you unfurl the sail will help, but is not strictly necessary.
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In the manual on troubleshooting it states that difficulty in furling can be caused by insufficient forestay tension or excessive halyard tension. At a brief glance it looks like i need to take down the sail and check/adjust forestay tension and when hoisting back up, adjust halyard to proper tension also.
”The sail will not furl, is hard to furl or can only be partly furled”
- The forestay is too slack. - Increase forestay tension.
- Too much strain on the halyard - Ease the halyard off a little
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You described your problem as getting a messy furl on the drum (when unfurling) which is not related to the forestay tension. If the forestay is too slack the foil will bend as you try to furl and the sail will not roll cleanly. Don't think you can avoid the fact that the shroud is there for a purpose and the Furlex will not work properly without it.
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Yes, i was getting a messy furl but after shifting the line on external guides, the furl is much better but it still significant force to roll the sail in light winds. Without a doubt i will replace the drum guide (already got some quotes with shipment).
I will take some photos of the new arramgent an modifications made.
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This is a very timely post as the topic of "improving the furling" is next on the list as I sit on our stern at the TravelLift awaiting the technician to install our new ransmission cable. Yard rules prevent me from "entering" our boat for 8 hours prior to any work being provided. This along with this series of posts gives me hours to contemplate the fueling set-up ad nauseam.
The observation I have to share is that under normal use, I doubt anyone expected the furling line or the stantion blocks to still be in use 20+ years after commissioning. Though the rest of the running rigging is mostly new, this one got by us and due to its ongoing difficulty, I'd guess the drum and halyard fitting could use a little love sooner than later too.
Other people's scary stories are definitely motivating.
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We have a "padded" luff genoa on our boat, which has been excellent in retaining the shape of the sail when we furl. However, because of the extra thickness at the front of the sail it does make it harder to wrap the first bit around and start the furling process.
I also think that the furling gear/ drum is not big enough for the size of the sail, particularly if you get a lot of wind suddenly. Why struggle when a bigger drum would have made things so much easier?