Bavaria Yacht Info
Member Forums => Bavaria Yacht Help! => Topic started by: JVS on August 24 2011, 16:50
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I'm looking for a source for rudder bearings for my 2003 Bavaria 44. I would also like to know the original dimensions. I would prefer Vesconite as the bearing material.
Any help would be appreciated!
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I'm looking for a source for rudder bearings for my 2003 Bavaria 44...
I bought mine from Bavaria, contact Leszek Kleczka (lkleczka@bavaria-yachtbau.com) Tel.: +49 9334 942 1930 Fax: +49 9334 942 1530
To give you an idea of price, for a 2000 Bavaria 47 the parts are as follows (August 2010 prices, all plus VAT):
Lower rudder bearing Art.: 315238 price 380 ?
Lower rudder bushing Art.: 304106 price 165 ?
Upper rudder bearing Art.: 315206 price 159 ?
Upper rudder bushing Art.: 304105 price 60 ?
You need to quote your HIN (http://boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/hin.htm) when ordering.
Nigel
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Thankyou very much for your help.. I was able to locate a supplier of "Vesconite" and ordered the bearings from them @ "XPC Bearings" not only the material I was looking for, but at a considerable savings. The lower bearing was $159.30 and the upper $67.50, which works to 110 euros and 47 euros respectively.
Vesconite seems to be the material of choice in the industry, because of it's durability and it doesn't swell over time while submerged in water. I'm not sure what Bavaria's bearings are made of, but they swell and seize up after 5 to 8 years. I don't want to go through this again..
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swell and seize up after 5 to 8 years...
Swelling I could cope with, it's when they go slack there is a problem.
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When they swell, you can't steer the boat and it also stresses other parts of the steering mechanism!
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On my 35, when out of the water, there is noticeable but not excessive movement at the lower bearing when the rudder is moved by hand from side to side, and none at the top. When in the water and the rudder is forced up by buoyancy there is considerable float of the emergency connector within it's circle of movement. Although nothing is felt while sailing, it's all beautifully smooth, I guess my top bearing needs attention? How much can be done from the top with the rudder in place?
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There's not much you can do with the rudder in place and by all means, don't attempt to service the upper bearing while in the water.. Once you remove the top nut the only thing keeping the rudder from dropping off is the quadrant.
It doesn't sound like you have a problem. I couldn't force my rudder to turn withthe emergency tiller
My rudder also had a crack in it at the top and it was full of water.
I'm still waiting for my new bearings and trying to find a new upper rudder post seal..
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On my 35, when out of the water, there is noticeable but not excessive movement at the lower bearing when the rudder is moved by hand from side to side, and none at the top. When in the water and the rudder is forced up by buoyancy there is considerable float of the emergency connector within it's circle of movement. Although nothing is felt while sailing, it's all beautifully smooth, I guess my top bearing needs attention? How much can be done from the top with the rudder in place?
I have a 34 with some sideways movement (say 5mm). Assumed it was bearing wear and planning to replace bearings during winter. I also suspected that adjustment of the top bearing might sort the play out as I was told the pipe the shaft goes into tappers and that taking up the slack on top removes play at bottom? (note no apparent top bearing slackness...do sometimes feel some vibration from rudder as put on way under engine...is that normal?)
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The steering on my 10 year old Bav38 is considerably stiffer this year than last year. Would this be an indication of impending bearing failure? I have disconnected the autopilot and ruled out transmission from the wheel to the quadrant by disconnecting the cables.
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The bearings won't necessarily fail, what happens is they swell and seize making it hard to turn and subsequently puts more stress on your steering mechanism. Mine is chain, like on a bicycle, smaller boats are cable. Mine became so bad that I'm sure I stretched the chain. It was almost impossible to turn with the emergency tiller.. I'm sure Bavaria is aware of this problem and might even read this forum, I would like it if they would chime in on this subject!
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Interestingly enough, my rudder nearly seized when the boat was out of the water. A "surveyor" mate told me it is frequent as the salt dries in the lower bearing when out of the water.
Loosened up after 12 hours in the water... still kept in the straps as I wondered what was happening...
Keep us posted, my older 46 "Exclusive" will need rudder bearings/bushes eventually
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Rudder bearings can be obtained from:-
Seaway Group, info@seawaygroup.eu
The bearings are "as original", so presumably Seaway Group supplied Bavaria yachts.
The quote for a complete set for my boat was euros 406.80 including transport.
Skipper.
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Thankyou very much for your help.. I was able to locate a supplier of "Vesconite" and ordered the bearings from them @ "XPC Bearings" not only the material I was looking for, but at a considerable savings. The lower bearing was $159.30 and the upper $67.50, which works to 110 euros and 47 euros respectively.
Vesconite seems to be the material of choice in the industry, because of it's durability and it doesn't swell over time while submerged in water. I'm not sure what Bavaria's bearings are made of, but they swell and seize up after 5 to 8 years. I don't want to go through this again..
Hi JVS, did you get your bearings from xpc bearings stateside, would LOVE to get the contact from you I have a 42' Bavaria in Greece at present and would like to replace them when I return next year. Any contact person there would be helpful as I know that both our boats have the same sized top and owed bearings. Thanks RUMBA
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HELLO , I have a Bav 44 , 2002 . did you have any luck finding the right material for the top bearing .
if I m correct it is only the " teflon " ring that needs replacing and the rubber O ring . do have any advice !?
regards , Peter
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did you have any luck finding the right material for the top bearing... if I m correct it is only the " teflon " ring that needs replacing and the rubber O ring...
Perhaps your bearings are different, but on a B47 they look like a cored apple and an aluminum cage. The picture below is the top bearing, the lower is similar (the rings in the picture are spacers).
I think they are made of "Acetal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyoxymethylene)" or POM.
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I'm looking for a source for rudder bearings for my 2003 Bavaria 44. I would also like to know the original dimensions. I would prefer Vesconite as the bearing material.
Any help would be appreciated!
My 1998 Ocean 38's lower bush swelled and was a problem by season 4, so I dropped the rudder and replaced the bearing with what Bavaria told me was one made of superior material. Guess what - that one swelled up too and I had to drop the rudder again to ream out the core.
For me this costs little but for those who have to pay heavily for lifting and yard work to replace the lower bush it must pay to get new bearings (I have not heard that top bearings are affected this way - certainly not in my case) Whether Bavaria have taken the trouble now to source with more suitable material - who knows?
PWG
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Thanks for the picture , it is the same as mine .
I think that in my case the 'flat ' ring needs to be replaced , it has some wear . and that's why I suspect the ' heavy rudder ' , finding the right materlial ( here in Greece ) is maybe more difficult .
thanks again
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the 'flat' ring needs to be replaced, it has some wear
One of mine was worn down to 1mm on one side, and still 3mm on the other; the shaft was not perpendicular to the aluminum boss. I had a tapered spacer made to go under the boss.
These spacers are a stock item from Bavaria, and not terribly expensive. However, any workshop should be able to make them, we had new ones made in Greece for a few ? each.
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Thanks for the advice , we will continue in januari ,
to all of you , Joyful Xmas days , seayou next year
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Shortly after buying our Bav36 the rudder went very tight. We managed to get the cost of new bearings and installation from the seller. But guess what? Within 2 months the rudder was showing signs of tightness! After checking everything on the wheel, quadrant etc. as a last resort I put some Olive Oil down the lower bearing tube and within a day's sailing the rudder loosened up and with an annual drop of olive oil has been okay since.
I used olive oil because it was to hand in the galley and I felt it might not have any detremental effect on the bearing material or rudder stock.
If the rudder is stiff save yourself alot of money by trying it!
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how did you manage to get oil to the rudder bearing ?. was the boat in the water.Id like to give it a try
Stardust
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how did you manage to get oil to the rudder bearing ?. was the boat in the water.Id like to give it a try
Stardust
Completely no effect, in my experience.
PWG
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Oiling lower rudder bearing on Bav36 (2002)
In repy to Stardust. You can get to the lower rudder bearing by going into the back cabin and removing the rear panel (toggles). I think the space at the back is called the Lazarrete? You will then see the aluminium bearing holder bonded into the bottom of the boat.
Fastened to the top of the holder, which is tubular, is a rubber tube attached with a jubilee clip. Remove the jubilee clip and lift the rubber tube up the rudder stock and put the oil down between the rudder stock and the tubular bearing holder. A couple of teaspoons full.
Refit the rubber tube.
Takes a bit of time for it to work through,
Hope this helps.
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Our 2006 39 cruiser suffered lower rudder bearing seizure after being in the yard for annual work.
Was totally free before this. 2 weeks after being back in the water, almost total seizure. Maximimum force using emergency tiller could not shift.
I contacted http://www.clippermarine.co.uk/ on the south coast (uk), common problem and apparently my fault due to lack of maintenance. Hmm!!
I bit the bullet and purchased their new lower needle roller bearing. Also purchased a standard replacement for the upper bearing.
All plastic of some type but with large plastic vertical rollers in it. I'd be surprised if this will seize.
Dropping the rudder being the hard part. Had to machine up an attachment for the top of the rudder shaft. Literally hammer the shaft down, mm by mm. Several hours later, the shaft was out.
The old bearing still in the housing had to very carefully drilled to reduce pressure until it could be turned and removed.
Refitting the new bearings was the easy part.
One would think that in this day and age, a bearing of suitable material and non hydroscopic could be fitted form the start.
The rudder can still be turned with my little finger to this day.
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Well... after encountering some rudder problems, I ordered a replacement from XPC Bearings in the US. Eric is easy to deal with and very fair.
F U Bavaria .... I wish they were on our planet instead of .... wherever they are... :sick :sick
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I am upgrading some items on Pegasus... one of them is the lower rudder bearing which was seized in the cage.
I had a quote of north of 600Euros from Bavaria.... plus VAT.
Guess what? I am having one manufactured by XPC bearings in the USA for a fraction of the Bav price. Made from Vesconite too which does not absorb water.... hence unlikely to seize. Total price including Customs and Delivery should be less than 1/3 the price.
Why do yacht builders think they can fuque us like this and expect our return business?
I suspect all other yachts may need this service sooner or later, hence this post.
To make it easy for XPC to produce a perfect fit, take out your old bearing and ship it to them... presto, you will get a clone ...
Happy customer!!!
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On my 35, when out of the water, there is noticeable but not excessive movement at the lower bearing when the rudder is moved by hand from side to side, and none at the top. When in the water and the rudder is forced up by buoyancy there is considerable float of the emergency connector within it's circle of movement. Although nothing is felt while sailing, it's all beautifully smooth, I guess my top bearing needs attention? How much can be done from the top with the rudder in place?
I have a 34 with some sideways movement (say 5mm). Assumed it was bearing wear and planning to replace bearings during winter. I also suspected that adjustment of the top bearing might sort the play out as I was told the pipe the shaft goes into tappers and that taking up the slack on top removes play at bottom? (note no apparent top bearing slackness...do sometimes feel some vibration from rudder as put on way under engine...is that normal?)
If it is sideways play on the rudder shaft itself, that it likely to be sorted by tightening the bearing. Can be easily done, best with two people so that one can take some of the weight from below as it is tightened from above. (Note: this best done on the hard!). Sure could be done on the water too.
If you are talking about slack in the steering, ie movement before action, then that is a cable-tightening job, again easily done (especially if you are small and agile - lol) by centreing the wheel and then taking up the cable slack on each side of the sterring quadrant below the cockpit floor in the rear lazarette, reach via starboard rear cabin hatchway. You'll need an adjustable wrench or a set of reasonable spanners, and I suggest gloves as there's sharp metal and loose fibreglass down there.
Good luck .......
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Interested in your exoperience as I have a similar problem with my 2001 Bavaria 40.
How long does it take to get the replacement bearings from XPC?
I am in Brisbane Australia.
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This spring the steering on my Bavaria 37 2006 became very stiff. Narrowed the cause to the lower bearing and by dropping the rudder and removing the plastic bearing noticed slight corrosion of the aluminium housing enough to cause the stiffness. Removed the plastic bearing, cleaned the housing, lubricated the housing, put the bearing back. Installed a small zinc to resist corrosion.
Steering now like new.
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Hi I understand you ordered new bearings from XPS. Did you send him your old ones? How did he know what size they were?
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I can detect a tightening of the steering system on our 2004 Bav36. The autopilot no longer controls the helm as smoothly as it once did and there is an audible squeak coming from the bearing.
Reading through the posts above, I suspect that the bearing has swollen to a point that it has started to interfere with the smooth movement of the post. I am making enquiries to XPC regarding supplying vesconite replacements for me in Australia. I will be travelling to Europe and the UK next month and would be intertested to learn of potential options for replacements that I may be able to pick up while there.
Can anyone please post to the forum a step by step procedure for the bearing replacement. It is not an area of the yacht that I have spent much time on to date. Even a schematic of the bearing and rudder post arrangement would help.
Thanks,
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On my 35, when out of the water, there is noticeable but not excessive movement at the lower bearing when the rudder is moved by hand from side to side, and none at the top. When in the water and the rudder is forced up by buoyancy there is considerable float of the emergency connector within it's circle of movement. Although nothing is felt while sailing, it's all beautifully smooth, I guess my top bearing needs attention? How much can be done from the top with the rudder in place?
I have a 34 with some sideways movement (say 5mm). Assumed it was bearing wear and planning to replace bearings during winter. I also suspected that adjustment of the top bearing might sort the play out as I was told the pipe the shaft goes into tappers and that taking up the slack on top removes play at bottom? (note no apparent top bearing slackness...do sometimes feel some vibration from rudder as put on way under engine...is that normal?)
If it is sideways play on the rudder shaft itself, that it likely to be sorted by tightening the bearing. Can be easily done, best with two people so that one can take some of the weight from below as it is tightened from above. (Note: this best done on the hard!). Sure could be done on the water too.
If you are talking about slack in the steering, ie movement before action, then that is a cable-tightening job, again easily done (especially if you are small and agile - lol) by centreing the wheel and then taking up the cable slack on each side of the sterring quadrant below the cockpit floor in the rear lazarette, reach via starboard rear cabin hatchway. You'll need an adjustable wrench or a set of reasonable spanners, and I suggest gloves as there's sharp metal and loose fibreglass down there.
Good luck .......
I'm not sure to understand what you mean by tightening the bearing; can you explain in more details please?
I also don't understand how tightening the assembly vertically can solve sideways slack. Again can you explain?
I'm not too familiar with the rudder shaft/bearings assembly, I never worked on it before.
I have a B38 2004 commissioned in 2005. In the last few weeks I sailed her (I sail from Nov to June in the Caribbean's) I could hear an occasional knocking sound from the rudder shaft area. So when I got her on the hard I inspected the rudder and noticed sideways slack. The steering is not tight as others have experienced. Is it just a case of tightening the bearing?
I had planned to change the bearings before the next season. Reading from the experience of many others here, may be it is time for me to change those bearings anyway?
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In discussion with someone well experienced with Bavaria maintenance I learned of another cause of tightening steering. The aluminium bearing housing can corrode and swell, particularly if it is exposed to copper based antifouling.
Apparently the countermeasure is to paint the housing and a surrounding buffer zone with non Cu based paint (as is done around the sail drive leg).
Is this common practice?
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I'm looking for a source for rudder bearings for my 2003 Bavaria 44...
I bought mine from Bavaria, contact Leszek Kleczka (lkleczka@bavaria-yachtbau.com) Tel.: +49 9334 942 1930 Fax: +49 9334 942 1530
To give you an idea of price, for a 2000 Bavaria 47 the parts are as follows (August 2010 prices, all plus VAT):
Lower rudder bearing Art.: 315238 price 380 ?
Lower rudder bushing Art.: 304106 price 165 ?
Upper rudder bearing Art.: 315206 price 159 ?
Upper rudder bushing Art.: 304105 price 60 ?
You need to quote your HIN (http://boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/hin.htm) when ordering.
Nigel
Be careful when ordering from the factory. I have done it twice now, once for a stanchion which was different in design from what I thought I had ordered and the other, for a pair of rudder bearings and a lipseal only got one out of three correct. The order also took from February until June to arrive and even then to my business address NOT out to Corfu where I was. As on dismantling the stock assembly I concluded that the bearings didn't need replacing anyway, all I needed was a seal. Bavaria had charged me ?130 for this (& it was the wrong size) yet I was able to source it locally in Corfu for ?22.
Correct adjustment was all that was required for these substantial self aligning bearings. Ideally you need two strong blokes to drop the rudder onto the hard and replace it or you can struggle with a pile of three old car tyres!
I WILL have a couple of bearings for sale soon since the "agent" who arranged the deal now denies any liability in my being sent the wrong ones by the factory.
Steve Cronin
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Has anybody found a way to get the actual dimensions of the rudder bearings or and decent aftermarket replacement source? Please do not simply post a Bavaria dealer. They want outrageous prices and I am in the Caribbean.
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In Europe Jefa can supply replacement bearings for all Bavaria types. Their bearings are roller type bearings. Owners who replaced the bearings by the Jefa roller type are happy with the smooth running. Maybe not cheap but good
I think the main problem with the original bearings is the corrosion of the lower bearing housing for the self aligning ball. The bearing itself is made of POM which, same as Vestonite, does not absorb any water. So there is not the problem.
Ger
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Thought I would drop my 2 cents regarding rudder bearings, as some time they may not require replacement (or at least not immediately).
Two years ago, in the middle of a 350miles passage the rudder seized very badly after about 100 miles - autopilot could not steer at all and by hand it was very very stiff. Had to hand steer for the rest of the passage - luckily we were a crew of 4. Upon arrival I tried to find a replacement bearing. No one had it in stock and considering delivery time and installation, that meant loosing more than a week of vacation, so I searched the net for alternative "first aid" solutions. One of them suggested to simply oil the bearing.
Crawl into the lazarette and loosen the top retaining band of the rudder shaft seal. Insert between the seal and the shaft the thin red tube that comes with any WD40 can. Spray a generous amount of wd40 into the seal - this is what I had, but I guess other lubricants may be good as well - one of the posters mentioned that they used olive oil because they had nothing else. At first there was no change, played with the wheel back and forth but the wheel was still very stiff. Went to sleep and the next morning the wheel was completely free - even smoother than I ever remembered. Just to make sure I sprayed again after 24 hours.
Continued for additional 500 miles on that trip, have been sailing for the last two years and still did not replace this bearing.
I did make some searches for alternative manufacturers and the 2 that came up were already mentioned in this thread.
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Well done Lyra, I have done this as part of my lift out maintenence for years, I hope more Bav owners do the same. I put engine oil in.
Odysseus
Bav 38
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Well done Lyra, I have done this as part of my lift out maintenence for years, I hope more Bav owners do the same. I put engine oil in.
Odysseus
Bav 38
I would be a little hesitating doing this. Is the rubber tube oil resistant. Normally it is not required in this application and the better material would be EPDM (not oil resistant) but excellent water resistant!
Did you experience any weakening of the material?
Ger
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The oil does not stop in the rubber tube it goes around the offending bearings and runs out when you lift the boat out of water.
You don't have to do this, your choice.
I have done it each year for 9 years, it works.
Odysseus
Bav 38
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Dear all
Although I have read many mentions of various oil-type liquids being put into the rudder tube, and everyone agreeing that it works (and I'm going to do the same!) but I don't actually understand how it's working. Surely, the oil works its way round the bearing when out of the water but the moment the boat goes back in, doesn't the seawater flood back round the bearing and the oil float to the surface? Or am I missing something? Confused... ::)
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Well, actually it seems to make its way even when the boat is in the water - I did not take the boat out of the water for my "repair". I assume that there is very little, if any, circulation of water in the tube so I guess the trapped water + oil make some kind of emulsion that maintains the lubrication.
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Thanks, Lyra. Well, everyone says it works and that's as good an explanation as I'm likely to find, so I'm gonna do it too. Hmm, I wonder if the missus will notice the lavender bath oil is missing... ;D
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Jaffa make replacement bearings for Bavaria. Pull up their website and the info is there. I have replaced the lower bearing with a roller assembly and a co entail bearing on top. No issues and reasonably priced here in Australia. Mick.
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I have a 34 with some sideways movement (say 5mm). Assumed it was bearing wear and planning to replace bearings during winter. I also suspected that adjustment of the top bearing might sort the play out as I was told the pipe the shaft goes into tappers and that taking up the slack on top removes play at bottom? (note no apparent top bearing slackness...do sometimes feel some vibration from rudder as put on way under engine...is that normal?)
I had quite a lot of movement in the rudder on my 2006 30. There is a big round "nut" at the top of the rudder stock, found by lifting the cover to access the emergency tiller point. This is turn is locked by a screw which distorts the thread. Just undo the locknut, then put a big pin wrench onto the nut and tighten it a bit. Mine needed about 3/4 of a turn to get rid of all the play. I did the job on the hard so it was easy to adjust the nut a bit, run down to check the play, go back and adjust some more ....... etc. I think it would be very difficult to do the job properly in the water, though you could probably improve things a lot. I bought the pin wrench on eBay for about £12, but it does take quite a bit of searching to find the right one amongst the numerous small ones for angle grinders, plus a few outrageously expensive ones.
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Not Jaffa, I think Mick means JEFA.
Danish company, you can find all necessary from there. Link to webpage below.
http://www.jefa.com/steering/steering.htm (http://www.jefa.com/steering/steering.htm)
BR,
-t
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This site which seems to belong to Bavaria Yachts lists parts available per boat model:
here for rudder bearing
https://www.bavariaplus.de/en/produkt/view/agxlfmJhdmlzLXZpdXJyFAsSB3Byb2R1a3QYgICAwIj7jwoM#article-details-agxlfmJhdmlzLXZpdXJyFAsSB2FydGlrZWwYgICAgOm_5QoM
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This site which seems to belong to Bavaria Yachts lists parts available per boat model:
These look like bearings and dimensions for newer (current?) models - the B36 is shown as 84mm while my boat is 60mm (probably similar to what is listed as 35 match).