Bavaria Yacht Info
Member Forums => Bavaria Yacht Help! => Topic started by: Gardan on July 10 2021, 10:00
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Hi , after starting a thread about rudder bearings replacement , I have titled this thread with ‘Sledge Hammer’ to reach out to anyone who has taken this what seems quite drastic action to remove the Rudder with siezed bearings holding it in place . After being directed to video on YouTube by a kind person on this site and it mentioned using a ‘Sledge Hammer ‘ to remove siezed bearings , before I do in fact start bashing away on Monday which I am reluctant to do but seems I may not have any choice . Has anyone else experienced siezed bearings that would not allow the rudder to drop after removal of auto arm and steering clamp arm ? There isn’t anything else for example that could be holding it is there ? A hidden screw perhaps .
Any experience at all would help thanks
Bavaria 38 1999
Cheers
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My boat is a Bavaria 38 1999
Whilst waiting for some help here’s some background which may help others in the future :
Please check your ‘splash seals’ or Gaitors as Jeffa call them as you can see by this picture I’ve sailing around with no protection , thankfully due to covid the boat hasn’t been on any long journey .
My gaitor splash seal literally crumbled in my fingers , when we released the strap around the rubber sock .
All 4 bolts on the auto arm where siezed solid and too 20mins and blow torch to remove , for the second 4 bolts around the steering clamp we purchased a longer Allen key about 9inches long this was really helpful but still needed a spanner on the end to get two hands on for leverage . These bolts also took 20 mins each at least , it’s a two man job really as it’s exhausting work in the confined space , also invest in two foam pillows for your neck and head to rest on . Here’s some pics . I’ll post some pics of the siezed bearings if we do get the bugg@3er of a rudder out [/img]
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Bolt seized
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Splash seal failed or Gaitor which I purchased direct from Jeffa
This crumbled when we removed the straps on the rubber sock
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Was advised to purchase this small tube £25 ouch . Of tef-gel anti seize anti corrosion lubricant . To put the bolts back in ... hope I don’t have to do this job again . But be useful on all other shackles and stuff I guess too .
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Another view of the failed splash gaitor seal
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Nasty auto arm bolts that took over an hour to release , one trick I learnt from chap helping me was to take your time and tighten yes tighten the bolt also and always go quarter turn forward and quarter turn back to avoid shearing the bolt which is nightmare to avoid in such a confined space.
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Auto pilot arm off
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Rudder drawing for reference
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What the new Jeffa rudder bearing and splash seal ( gaitor ) highlighted in red looks like .
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Sorry here the pic
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Was advised to purchase this small tube £25 ouch . Of tef-gel anti seize anti corrosion lubricant . To put the bolts back in ... hope I don’t have to do this job again . But be useful on all other shackles and stuff I guess too .
Nobody needs Tef-Gel for anything, ever. It's a non-setting anti-seize lubricant, which means any waterproof grease (e.g. silicone) is a suitable equivalent that does the same job for a fraction of the money. In certain places, such as exterior rivets, a setting anti-seize compound such as Duralac is better advised anyways. For your rudder quadrant and such, dipping the bolts into some silicone grease will work absolutely fine.
So many ways to get ripped off in the marine sector - be wary! >:D
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Hey yngmar , is that so , ha ha another expensive lesson learnt , thanks
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Take a look at this video on YouTube:
*** note I have removed this video link as I was advised this was for a motor boat and would of damaged my ruddder , so I’d ignore the post completely ***
This is an interesting video where they removed the rudder from beneath the hull , using leverage , my rudder does move from side to side , so maybe a combination of this method and also hammering the rudder from the top May do the job , three man job at least . One on rudder moving - one on plank leveraging downward pressure and one up top , hitting the rudder with a sledge hammer ? Hmmm this makes sense to me as when we did you quite a bit of force with the lump hammer , we didn’t rotate the rudder nor did we use any leverage and the rudder didn’t budge a mm for all our efforts . What you think ?
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Text removed by Garden as we did not use this method described in original text .
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Do not pull or apply leverage on the rudder blade like shown in the video. That video was a motorboat with welded metal rudders. If you do this on your Bavaria, you will seriously damage the rudder.
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Yngmar : ok thanks for the advice , we’ll go back to the Sledge hammer from the top . Thanks
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Update : this is what I actually did but I damaged the housing also using this method . I would still probably do it this way regardless if knowing that the top hat housing was going to damaged beyond repair and new one purchased
We have an idea ( before we sledge hammer ) to purchase some long drill bits - and try to drill upwards through the tiny gap in the letter box , move the rudder bit by bit and drill up as many times as we can to try and damage the bearing as much as we can so it releases its grip . We feel like the top bearing has quite a strangle hold on the shaft . It’s a very small hole underneath the bearing the slot of the letter box where the bearing should drop out when the shaft is off .
Any thoughts on this idea ?
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If you can get in there, that might help relieve the pressure of the swollen bearing. Try to be careful and not damage the housing though.
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Yngmar : thanks again for your support , yes we have to drill on an angle toward the rudder shaft we have taken a measurement from the new bearing and taped the drill bits 1/4 of an inch lower than the depth , we are conscious we may scrape the shaft with the drill bits as we go in on Angle , but feel we could repair this if we don’t go daft, so the soft bearing could run smooth around the shaft .
Thanks again
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Top of shaft
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Top of shaft
Just to clarify, you have been removing the nut before hammering the top of the shaft?
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No we left the top nut on but gave it half an inch turn to catch the rudder should she drop
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No we left the top nut on but gave it half an inch turn to catch the rudder should she drop
Could you try using the emergency tiller to twist the stock at the same time as hammering it?
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Hi Tiger we are hammering the top where the emergency tiller fits so no , however we can wiggle the rudder from underneath as we bash it .
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Good news and bad news , with Yngmar’s words ringing in my ears ‘it has to come out, deal with the damage later !
Ha ha well overall I’m pleased but there is some collateral damage to deal with tomorrow !!!
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Very Good news and some bad news , with yngmar’s words ringing in my ears . ‘It has to come out , deal with the damage later ‘
Well we got the rudder out at least !
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Top bearing - notice the inner sleeve of this old bearing . Not like the new Jeffa model at all really
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Collateral damage to the Top bearing housing caused by the drilling from underneath in the letter box to try and split the bearing to release the grip it had on the shaft of the rudder ....sorry yngmar as much as we tried to heed you advice it was near impossible to not damage the bearing housing . I’d describe this as ‘Top Hat ‘ which the bearing sits inside this . I’ll get a price to replace this tomorrow off Jeffa hopefully.
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The bottom bearing came out easily
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The new bottom bearing going in the letter box
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The ‘top hat ‘ the top bearing housing unit , that we will have to replace as we damaged the inside of it with drilling to release the top seized bearing, update on the cost of this later
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The new bottom bearing in place
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New Bottom bearing pic two
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Hi Tiger we are hammering the top where the emergency tiller fits so no , however we can wiggle the rudder from underneath as we bash it .
As Yngmar said in reply 15, don't apply force to the rudder. Even with the emergency tiller fitted, can't you still hammer the top of the stock?
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Hi Tiger , I may be mistaken , but I think Yngmar was quite rightly warning me not to apply force like the video in post 13 where the guys where using planks to leverage the rudder down , but as yngmar pointed out it was a motor boat . I am in debt to Yngmar for this advice .
We was in fact hitting this top of rudder shaft with large lump hammer , we never did use the sledge hammer and went for the drilling from underneath, she moved on the first blow after we did the drilling . Shame we damaged the housing , but I’m glad she’s out now .
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Word of warning :
I can’t help wondering if the main reason the top bearing was so badly seized was due to me putting in 3 in 1 oil and wd40 into the top bearing ( as Yngmar mentioned after I had done it , was a mistake ) The bottom bearing which is inaccessible so I couldn’t oil up , came out easily . I suppose I’ll never know entirely as the bearing was siezed when we first inspected it we could clearly see that it was not moving around the shaft , and why we put the oil in , ha ha made sense at the time .
But a lesson learnt for sure , again thanks to Yngmar .
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Changed title of thread and removed the ‘sledge hammer’ which was in the original title
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Hi Tiger we are hammering the top where the emergency tiller fits so no , however we can wiggle the rudder from underneath as we bash it .
You could fit the emergency tiller and then bash that.
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Yes suppose so , once we drilled the bearing a few smacks with good size lump hammer with a block of wood rested on top of the shaft and it slid out , I’m just waiting on a price from Jeffa for the top hat bearing housing that I damaged with the drilling from underneath. I really could not see any other way to get the rudder to move a mm without the drilling . Also I would say because of the limited Angle you can get the long 4 & then 6mm drill bit in there was not much chance to not damage the housing. I was trying to be carful but you almost need to slice a gap like wedge out the apple shaped bearing to give it room to collapse within its self . It was proper seized . Holding all that weight and hammer blows could not budge it . The cost of the housing is going to be interesting, I’ll post this tomorrow and when I get to the end of the job I’ll post the total cost in parts and the Labour which was reduced substantially as I did a lot of the donkey work . Still probably around the £1,000 mark I’d say when the £250 lift out cost thrown in. Or perhaps more when I get this housing price tomorrow :(
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After this thread , I believe annual lowering of the rudder can save more time that it spends …
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Hmmm maybe , however these bearings i suspect have been in the boat since new so 22yrs old and the jeffa bearings look like better design to me. I doubt I'll be touching these bearings for at least 5 years (jeffa recommend 3yrs ) , but will give the bolts a wiggle and some grease every three years perhaps.
A huge amount of time (two men) of time was getting the 4 bolts out of the auto pilot ( they will go back in with silcone grease ) and the 4 bolts holding the steering , just a little maintenance on these 8 bolts would be time very well invested imo , an hour every 3/4 yrs perhaps ? if these bolts undone and the rudder bearing not seiezed , it could definitely be done and dusted in a day with two people IMO
Then perhaps and i don't know , but if steering started to get stiff perhaps lift it out sharpish before the bearing siezed , In my research also it said make sure you rinse down the bearings with fresh water when lifting out the boat as when the salt dry's that's not so good .
jeffa recommend every three years maintenance here is a link https://youtu.be/xF9OXOCrE5c
releasing the bolts working in the back was proper hard work , i'll be greasing mine in future
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After this thread , I believe annual lowering of the rudder can save more time that it spends …
Whilst on the topic of maintenance please take a look at this pic and notice the 'pitting' around the bottom of the boat around the lower rudder bearing housing , that's not just chipped paint they are small tiny pitted holes , I'm going to treat these and seal with decent paint (not sure what yet) but going to give it a good few coats after filling the small pit holes .
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close up of the same area notice small holes forming
i have it on good advice that a product called 'Belzona' its really rock solid for filling aluminium and steel holes and easy to work with . Its on order !
I will be giving this area special attention every times the boat is lifted out the water. I dont want any problems around the bearing housing
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Whilst on the topic of maintenance please take a look at this pic and notice the 'pitting' around the bottom of the boat around the lower rudder bearing housing , that's not just chipped paint they are small tiny pitted holes , I'm going to treat these and seal with decent paint (not sure what yet) but going to give it a good few coats after filling the small pit holes .
It may be electrolytic corrosion caused by having copper-based antifoul on the aluminium housing. Jefa recommend using something like Trilux for 75-100mm around the rudder stock area.
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After this thread , I believe annual lowering of the rudder can save more time that it spends …
Whilst on the topic of maintenance please take a look at this pic and notice the 'pitting' around the bottom of the boat around the lower rudder bearing housing , that's not just chipped paint they are small tiny pitted holes , I'm going to treat these and seal with decent paint (not sure what yet) but going to give it a good few coats after filling the small pit holes .
Maybe go back to my first post where I linked to the video of the bearing replacement on a 36 like yours. I observed at the time that it was wrong to try and add an anode - the pitting is caused by electrolysis and I advised following the Jefa recommendation of using a non copper AF such as Trilux for a ring 100mm round the housing, and on top of the rudder where the alloy shaft goes into the rudder - unless like some it has a Delrin washer there. Suggest you also check the inside of the bearing housing for pitting. The cause of seizing in the video was corrosion in the housing from electrolysis that resulted in the bearing seizing in the housing and around the shaft. Use an aluminium filled epoxy - various brands available, just google - to fill the pits in your photo then prime and Trilux.
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Whilst on the topic of maintenance please take a look at this pic and notice the 'pitting' around the bottom of the boat around the lower rudder bearing housing , that's not just chipped paint they are small tiny pitted holes , I'm going to treat these and seal with decent paint (not sure what yet) but going to give it a good few coats after filling the small pit holes .
I had some pitting on the lower housing too, perhaps caused by bad alloying of the material itself. I cleaned them up with a small grinding head on a die grinder and then filled with epoxy filler (International Watertite, because I had some left from another job). Then painted aluminium etch primer and Velox Plus propeller antifouling over it, which gets refreshed whenever we haul out. No issues since.
Our Jefa roller bearings have been doing well in the last 5 years and the overhauled steering is precise and goes easy (can turn wheel with one finger). Only problem was a little leak from the bolts of the upper bearing housing. Undid those last winter and applied some fresh Butyl around the heads which hopefully sorts that.
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Velox would be good to use around the bearing housing as it would not need regular recoating like Trilux. Worth investing in a tin of primer and topcoat as it would cover the saildrive and Prop as well.
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Hi SYm-Yngmar & Tiger
I have just been informed by Jeffa that they don't do a replacement top hat bearing housing (the one i damaged drilling) , so I've contacted SVB to see what they have , bit disappointed as Jeffa are super quick getting parts over next day to Uk . Thinking weeks now but we'll see. I'm now wondering if take it to my friends car body shop could they repair it with the Belzona alloy filler ? to get me sailing this summer ,Then perhaps fit the new top hat next time I take her out the water .
I think i will invest in the primer and top coat of Velox , good shout , thanks
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top hat damage
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top hat damage 2
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top hat x 3
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One thought:
There shouldn't be any movement between the upper bearing housing and the bearing, so the load on the bearing housing is only static. All the movement (and wear and tear) should appear between rudder stock and rudder bearing (if everything is correct).
So i would fair the surfaces of the bearing housing to remove all edges caused by drilling and put everything together.
I think you have enough proper surface in the housing to carry the bearing.
But for peace in mind to can replace it (if you get it!). I would choose sailing with that part instead of waiting for the new part.
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I don't suppose some aluminium welding and machining at a non marine machine shop would be cheaper than an official replacement?
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Hi Geoff , yes agree on cost however it won’t cost me anything at the body shop as I have some involvement in the business, but it’s not actually about the cost it’s the time element , I’m thinking a new unit may take many weeks and I haven’t sailed at all this year , this job came up after fixing other stuff the last two months . It’s more to do with time time than cost .
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Yes Syjet, I would obviously have to see an assess the smoothness of the repair , but my thoughts are similar to yours , there isn’t much loading at all on the damaged area especially with the new Jeffa bearing having rollers in the inside which make contact with the rudder shaft .
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another development with the Rudder - Leaking Water , rudder seems to have water in it .
Any advice on this please?
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another pic , so far a half pint of water from the rudder
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ruuder leak pic 3
This is with the rudder flipped over and where I am draining the water from the rudder , dont want to seal this until its dry.
Anyone experienced this before ?
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ha ha turning out to be proper little project this Ha ha !!
I' suspect the rudder is letting in from the top of the rudder where the shaft joins the rudder , I'll seal that after draining the rudder.
I've drilled a 6mm hole at the base of the rudder to drain it proper , it felt about an inch I think to punch through the fibreglass rudder to the hollow middle, I didn't know it was hollow untill i researched the leak .
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base of rudder drill hole
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Going to leave it in my garage for a week to drain and dry out
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see pic
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I am sure the bearings being 22 yrs old where ready to fail regardless of the water filled rudder , however , is it any coincidence that the rudder is full of water ? I have no idea of how the design of the rudder is meant to interact with the boat and bearings and interact if at all with the sea, apart from the obvious steering use . But if the rudder is made of fibreglass and is hollow one might assume that it was designed to have some buoyancy ? does it ? and if so then having a rudder which is full of water would affect the steering and the strain on the bearings quite considerably I would imagine , or am I way off? any thoughts or knowledge ?
Does the fibreglass hollow of the rudder push up so there is no pressure on the bearings / and transversely if the rudder is full of water and lost its buoyancy is it adding undue strain to the bearings ? if this is so , then checking your rudder has no water in it when antifouling would take 10 mins - drill a small hole and if no water comes out mix a bit of epoxy and fill ...job done, if water comes out , I'm afraid that could be a rudder drop to check the top joint to the rudder.
So instead of my rudder floating in the water , its been dragging me down filled with water ? I suspect my steering will be much lighter after all this.
This is all speculation at this point I 'd love some more experienced views on these thoughts please .
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The rudder is foam filled and water ingress is quite common - not just on Bavaria rudders, just endemic of the type of construction. The usual entry point is as shown in your pic where it is coming out - that is where the stock goes into the blade. To drain the rudder, drill a hole in the bottom and stand it upright. When it has stopped dribbling you can plug the hole with epoxy. Realistically you can never hope to get it dry without splitting the rudder, removing the damp foam and refoaming. To minimise further ingress, there are potentially 2 methods. First dig out the GRP in a circle around the stick about 20mm deep, then if it is dry enough fill with an epoxy dough mix of silica and microballoons. alternatively set a close fitting O ring around the stock and fill with Sika.
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I had also water in my rudder. One winter on the hard with frost the rudder was broken. A netherland company built up a new ruder with plywood in epoxy around the old rudderstock. They say it will last longer than the boat.
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They say it will last longer than the boat.
But they would say that, wouldn't they?
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Thanks Syp , good to know it’s not just my rudder also .
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Water in the rudder is very common on hollow rudder blades. Jefa has an article on the subject showing how to seal around the shaft: https://www.pyiinc.com/downloads/jefa/rudder-antifouling-instructions.pdf
Never store the rudder laying down flat - the water can pool inside and cause blisters. Store it standing/hanging upright and drill a drain hole at the bottom.
As the rudder is filled with PU foam, it's not going to dry out entirely this way, but it'll help. I happened to have a vacuum pump around and stuck a hose in the drain hole and it got a lot of water out after it had stopped dripping. But don't worry too much if you can't get it dry - most people sail around with some water in theirs.
Or go sail around Galicia and let an Orca chew it off for you :))
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Thanks Yngmar, can anyone recommend alternative to Velox rudder base paint around the lower bearing housing , my order for it was cancelled due to Europe exports issue. I’m in the UK
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Trilux, same as you should use on the saildrive housing and propeller. Has to be renewed annually but no big deal.
I understand Velox has been banned in the UK but you may still find it in stock in chandlers such as Force4.
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Force 4 do have Velox & the primer thanks Symp , on order , cheers for that .