Author Topic: Clearance for Rudder Removal - B37 2006  (Read 8675 times)

dawntreader

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 559
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria37
  • Boat Year: 2006
Clearance for Rudder Removal - B37 2006
« on: October 10 2014, 20:28 »
I have to replace the bearings on my rudder so it will have to come off when she comes out of the water. Assuming the boat is stood on her keel (keel = 1.95m) does anyone know how much extra clearance is then required to allow for the removal of the rudder and stock ?

JEN-et-ROSS

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 322
  • Karma: +3/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria 38 Lagoon
  • Boat Year: 1990
Re: Clearance for Rudder Removal - B37 2006
« Reply #1 on: October 12 2014, 09:59 »
Hi Dawntreader.
   I had to do this on our B38 a couple of years ago. Having received permission from the boatyard to dig a trench below the rudder I started digging. The final depth to achieve a reasonable clearance was approx. 700mm to 800mm !! (and it kept filling with water  :(). On reflection it would have been simpler to strip out the steering quadrant, autopilot arm etc. with the boat still in the water leaving the only the "Jesus nut" at the top of the stock to stop it dropping out, then removing the rudder with the boat still in the slings.  Replace the bearings over the winter and refit the rudder in the spring with the boat in the slings again. It was worth it in the end though. :)

dawntreader

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 559
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria37
  • Boat Year: 2006
Re: Clearance for Rudder Removal - B37 2006
« Reply #2 on: October 13 2014, 08:05 »
Thanks for that update on clearances. I have already arranged with the boatyard to have her 'held' whilst I drop out the rudder when she comes out.

They will not allow any digging in the yard as this leaves a weak spot on the ground which may unbalance the crane at some other time.

I had wondered if she could be left slightly higher so that the rudder could be refitted once she was on the cradle but looking at the clearance needed I don't want her too high in case of bad weather over Winter. I will have to go with refitting immediately prior to relaunch.

I won't undo anything prior to taking her out as I need steering and this means the coupling must stay in place  :tbu

solar

  • Guest
Re: Clearance for Rudder Removal - B37 2006
« Reply #3 on: October 13 2014, 11:39 »
As a future job waiting to be done...
What kind of new Bearing's are considerd the "best" today? Bavaria's original? Jefa's? else?
Read something about new needle roller Bearing's? Anyone tried them? price?
What size is needed for a 2008 38" Cruiser?
What is the expected rudder's weight when you'r the one to catch it down there when disconnected?
Thanks.

JEN-et-ROSS

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 322
  • Karma: +3/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria 38 Lagoon
  • Boat Year: 1990
Re: Clearance for Rudder Removal - B37 2006
« Reply #4 on: October 13 2014, 16:26 »
Hi. Solar.
  Our B38 is somewhat older than yours and things may be different but we have "DELRIN" bushes that act as the bearings. Delrin is regarded as the best material for seawater contact as it doesn't swell up when wet. If you have rollers then I guess that is the route you will have to take.
  As for ours, I bought two lengths of delrin "rod" from a local plastic supplier, one 150mm dia. by 200mm long for the lower and one 100mm dia. by 100mm long for the upper. A local mechanical engineer measured the diameter of the rudder stock bearing surfaces and also measured the internal diameter of the lower tube and the upper bearing carrier, this needs to be very accurate as the outer surface of the bearing need to be an interference fit to prevent the bush from rotating in the tube. They then machined the Delrin to create the bushes.
 The whole lot cost about £150, not bad I thought. ;D
  As for the weight of the rudder, I had a mate support it I while spun off the top nut, then we both lowered it gently out, easy with two of you.
  I hope this helps and good luck with the replacement.

Spirit of Mary

  • Able Seaman
  • ****
  • Posts: 151
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria 38
  • Boat Year: 2003
Re: Clearance for Rudder Removal - B37 2006
« Reply #5 on: October 13 2014, 18:34 »
On the Dutch Bavaria forum the rudder bearings have been a topic several times. All who changed the bearings for JEFA roller bearings are very happy with it. The steering is much lighter. I personally don't have any problems with my BAV 38 bearings up to now. However, I don't know if they have ever been changed.
Reg.
Ger

solar

  • Guest
Re: Clearance for Rudder Removal - B37 2006
« Reply #6 on: October 14 2014, 10:18 »
Thank you guys,very good info.
Mine are still well too,maybe because the boat is only in fresh water since 2008?
When the boat was out for cleaning I felth a little side movments of the rudder that were not there 2 years ago.
Rudder still feels OK so I think the work can wait.
Maybe someone who went the Jefa way can tell us more?
 :tbu

dawntreader

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 559
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria37
  • Boat Year: 2006
Re: Clearance for Rudder Removal - B37 2006
« Reply #7 on: October 14 2014, 10:24 »
Solar,
I had only slight sideways movement last season. This year when returning home from Laredo in Spain the steering seized and has been stiff ever since  :sick

Kerry1

  • Swab
  • Posts: 4
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria 38
  • Boat Year: 2004
Re: Clearance for Rudder Removal - B37 2006
« Reply #8 on: October 22 2014, 11:21 »
As this is a job I have done (with some satisfaction) on my boat I will comment. We have a B 38 (2004). I knew I was in for a job when the helm started going stiff after an idle period. This was a couple of years ago so the bearings were 8yrs old or so. We keep the boat in the (salt) water all year round as is common in this part of the world, only coming out for maintenace. I researched a bit and it seemed the problem would be either the nylon plasticky thing had swollen or the alloy bearing housing had corroded creating pressure on the bearing, which being somewhat flexible was transferring pressure to the rudder stock and creating resistance to movement.

I was hoping it was the plastic thing as the housing is resined into the hull. After reading daunting stories of sledge hammers pounding for hours on the rudder stock to try and get it out of the bearings I had worked up a dread for commencing the job. I don't recall much of an issue about digging into the boatyard surface to allow the rudder to come away cleanly. I know that we did some scratching around in the gravel but it wasn't significant. If you allow so much from the rudder stock through the top bearing (say 130mm guessing from memory) and a little more for the bottom bearing (say 150mm) the complete length of the rudder shaft can be measured from the inside the lazarette access in the aft cabin. Then measure down from the bottom of the rudder and you will know how much to dig. If digging is not an option then either make arrangement to hang for a minimum of two hours to be safe or have it placed on hard at appropriate level.

My biggest fear was damaging the top of the rudderstock from hammering it to get it moving. Admittedly mine was not seized completely just getting very stiff and way too much work on the auto pilot and the rest of the gear. I was forewarned the rudder is quite a hefty piece so set up a rope sling to take the weight as it started to come free and slide through the bearings after removing the locknut affair on top. After some thought I figured the best way to avoid damage to the top of the stock was to take advantage of the weight of the rudder and the flexibility of the fibreglass hull. So the secret method to my madness is this: Instead of belting the hell out of the top of the stock I got a rubber mallet (no sledgehammer by any means) and tapped upwards around the bottom bearing housing on the hull bottom. Being tens of kilos heavy, the inertia of the rudder is such that every tap upwards acted like a ratchet on the rudder stock and it inched (or should I say millimetered) down as I tapped up. The flexibility of the hull allowed the bottom bearing housing to rise a fraction as I pounded, while the weight of the rudder resisted that movement up. It took maybe an hour but seeing it move fraction by fraction was worth it as no damage to either the hull or the stock was done. No heavy gear at all needed. I even managed with a straight back to carry the said rudder and lay it down without popping any discs.

After getting it out the next issue was getting out the nylon-plastic (whatever) bearing. Actually have just realized this has all been covered before on this forum. Here is a link that will show a great series of photos that highlight the way to remove the offending bottom bearing which is virtually the same as the Dufour pictured: https://www.flickr.com/photos/41315554@N07/sets/72157622026477419/ In the pictures shown, the guy is using a piece of galvanized pipe to swing on the siezed bearing from side to side. Being round it needs to be rotated to a certain angle before it can be removed. This was by far the hardest part of the job. From memory my pipe lever was at least a metre long, perhaps 1.2 metres and i used every inch of it with all my weight and lots of different lubes to try to get movement. It was quite a while before it would move at all and I got quite rough with it, but at last it started a little. It definitely puts a strain on the resin to housing bond but it held well and there were no leaks when back in the water.

I disagree with whoever complained at the type of plastic used for the bearing, while it may be inferior on some boats or models, the problem was not swelling of the bearing due to absorbing water or whatever. It was the corrosion of the alloy bearing housing. Perhaps anodes attached would stop this. Once I cleaned up the housing with emory paper and applied liberal quantities of marine grade grease I replaced the same plastic bearing with no problems. No tightness and no wear either- just smooth finger pressure to turn the helm again. Brilliant. And I hardly had to open my wallet. It's been at least a couple of years now with no recurrence.

P.S. It should not be forgotten that once the rudderstock has cleared the top bearing- if the bottom bearing has any movement at all this can be used to advantage. The whole rudder can be pivoted to some degree to help clear the ground beneath, it can swing away with all the quadrant and cable off and auto pilot gear off, which may lessen the height necessary to clear the ground.

dawntreader

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 559
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria37
  • Boat Year: 2006
Re: Clearance for Rudder Removal - B37 2006
« Reply #9 on: October 22 2014, 12:41 »
Thanks Kerry1 for the information and advice on rudder removal - some important notes on the potential problem of removing the old bearing from the rudder stock too  :tbu.

I looked at the option of JEFA bearings. This involves much more engineering than I am personally prepared to undertake and also requires the rudderstock to be refitted during the replacement and re-sealing sequence as the roller bearing and new housing are not self aligning - very good descriptions/pictures of this process on the JEFA website: http://www.jefa.com/. This would mean a further lift adding to the costs.

I went directly to the Bavaria factory to source both the upper and lower bearings and expect to receive these shortly - cost 214 euros + delivery (tba).

dawntreader

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 559
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria37
  • Boat Year: 2006
Re: Clearance for Rudder Removal - B37 2006
« Reply #10 on: November 19 2014, 14:58 »
Update:
I had intended to drop the rudder when being lifted out. However, one of the steering quadrant bolts wouldn't shift and I ran out of time  >:(
With the boat now sitting on the cradle and with one bolt removed I was able to knock the quadrant up the rudder stock where it is thinner and removed it that way. No damage/marks on the rudder stock either. The remaining bolt was corrosion-welded to part of the quadrant and a blow torch was needed to remove it from the 'C' section. Once undone I was able to remove the rudder and stock without digging under the boat etc. The keel is rested on the cradle 45cm above the ground and the stock just cleared allowing the rudder to be removed. It also slipped out of the old bearing so no issues there.
Still waiting for Bavaria to deliver the replacements  :-X

Moodymike

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 277
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clearance for Rudder Removal - B37 2006
« Reply #11 on: November 19 2014, 15:43 »
What deph is your keel?

dawntreader

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 559
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria37
  • Boat Year: 2006
Re: Clearance for Rudder Removal - B37 2006
« Reply #12 on: November 19 2014, 16:32 »
Keel is 1.76m depth. Not sure why you want this as it won't help with measurements - the hull curves up above the keel to where the rudder stock enters it (i.e. is higher). Although not able to give it immediately, I suspect measurements for the height above ground for where the stock enters the hull and length of the rudder + stock would be more use?

dawntreader

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 559
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria37
  • Boat Year: 2006
Re: Clearance for Rudder Removal - B37 2006
« Reply #13 on: December 18 2014, 14:16 »
Update:
Finally received the replacement bearings today. Very interesting to note that the supplier Bavaria use for the bearing is Jefa and that the new lower bearing has rollers in it. This may be much better wearing than the solid ball of the original design. In fact, I think the rollers probably make the ball design redundant now? Next task is to refit the rudder  :-X

For information I have added the new bearing specification for my B37 2006 to this mail

Spirit of Mary

  • Able Seaman
  • ****
  • Posts: 151
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria 38
  • Boat Year: 2003
Re: Clearance for Rudder Removal - B37 2006
« Reply #14 on: December 18 2014, 16:47 »
Update:
Finally received the replacement bearings today. Very interesting to note that the supplier Bavaria use for the bearing is Jefa and that the new lower bearing has rollers in it. This may be much better wearing than the solid ball of the original design. In fact, I think the rollers probably make the ball design redundant now? Next task is to refit the rudder  :-X

For information I have added the new bearing specification for my B37 2006 to this mail

I don't think the rollers make the ball design redundant. With the ball design the complete bearing (roller or sleeve doesn't matter) unit is self aligning. When sailing under heeling and slight deformation of the hull the lower unit can self Allin to the top bearing unit. This is required because the bearings, top and bottom, are not both in one stiff housing. So to my opinion it is also important when not already in the fitting instructions that the ball sphere is well greased before fitting with a water resistant grease, so that it keeps self aligning in the future.

Ger

dawntreader

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 559
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria37
  • Boat Year: 2006
Re: Clearance for Rudder Removal - B37 2006
« Reply #15 on: December 18 2014, 17:01 »
Thanks 'Spirit of Mary' - your observation makes sense. Jefa instructions are to lightly grease the ball at installation but keep rollers 'clean'. :tbu

dawntreader

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 559
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria37
  • Boat Year: 2006
Re: Clearance for Rudder Removal - B37 2006
« Reply #16 on: December 20 2014, 16:15 »
Additional note:
Check the bearing seal located above the lower bearing (clamped in the rubber hose on the rudder stock). Mine was slightly damaged and will now have to be replaced prior to re-installing the rudder. The size of the seal was stamped on its cover and I have sourced mine at www.simplybearings.co.uk (using a TC double lip seal as opposed to the original SC single lip).