Author Topic: Raymarine Type 1 Auto-Pilot sheared off  (Read 4114 times)

Jeffatoms

  • Able Seaman
  • ****
  • Posts: 112
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Ocean 38
  • Boat Year: 1998
Raymarine Type 1 Auto-Pilot sheared off
« on: February 05 2021, 05:54 »
We have been having problems with our Raymarine/Autohelm 5000+ Autopilot for more than a year.  It has acted random.  Given that it is 15+ years old, I've contemplated replacing the whole thing with new or a slightly used system given to me by a dockmate who likes new gizmos.

To my aid, a few former Raymarine reps told me, "you wouldn't believe how many of those we have replaced when the only fault was in the rudder angle sensor.  Get a new one for about $250 replace it and that will fix it 99% of the time.  You can than me later."  So I purchased one and decided to give the autopilot a test run while waiting for it to arrive.

To my surprise, the autopilot worked fine turning to starboard (in my slip) both in 1 degree and 10 degree increments.  Finally to port I received a DRIVESTOP error twice.  It struggled turning to port so I set it to STANDBY and went to see what I could see.  To my shock, the under quadrant mounted autopilot control plate/arm that is normally held square to the quadrant pointing aft, with four securing upward bolts only had one in it and had pivoted well off of the rudder post.  Add to that that the Type 1 drive was fully retracted (DRIVESTOP'ed) but the rudder indicator was reading accurately in the true direction of the rudder.

So I figure I'm dead in the water until I remove the autopilot arm from the drive and more specifically the control arm from the underside of the quadrant.  Note that the flush bolts appear to be snapped off the at quadrant.  I could not locate them.  I think with the help of my wife we can turn the wheel and get the arm centered on the post so that I can pull the pin from the drive to start the disassembly.

Long story to get to the question.  Sorry.  Has this happened to anyone else and if so how did you succeed in correcting it?  Given that three of the bolts have snapped and they point downward in a tight space, is it advisable to remove the steering quadrant in order to try to EZ-out those bolts?  If so, how?  Given the boat is 22 years old is it time to also replace the steering cables too (PLEASE NO!)?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.  I can say I'm not a fan of how the control arm was secured to the steering quadrant now that it is broken.  Note photo is from inside the transom looking upward and forward towards the rudder post, quadrant and aft cabin forward of steering gear. Uggg!

Joe

  • Second Mate
  • **
  • Posts: 39
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria 38 Ocean
  • Boat Year: 1998
Re: Raymarine Type 1 Auto-Pilot sheared off
« Reply #1 on: February 05 2021, 17:29 »
On our B38 Ocean the control arm between rudder quadrant and drive is fixed with 5 bolts and nuts. I have attached some photos. If, as it appears on your photos, the bolts are screwed into a thread and sheared off, I fear you have to bite the bullet and remove the rudder quadrant to drill new holes.

If the steering cables still running easily and smooth, I don‘t see a reason to replace them.

Joe

Yngmar

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1594
  • Karma: +22/-2
  • Boat Model: 40 Ocean
  • Boat Year: 2001
Re: Raymarine Type 1 Auto-Pilot sheared off
« Reply #2 on: February 05 2021, 19:03 »
That's not really a good way of attaching the autopilot arm, as you quite correctly surmised by now. Don't believe it's original (often autopilots or entire electronics packages were fitted not from the factory but by the dealer, as that was more money in the dealer's pocket and a small discount in the buyers).

As to what happened, the recommendation you got was probably right, the rudder position sensor is faulty, usually the potentiometer (which is a $10 part that you're paying $250 for) got scratchy, read wrong and the autopilot drove the actuator past the end stop. These actuators being very strong, something had to give and it was the bolts, which while annoying, is cheaper than a destroyed actuator!

The proper way to do this is to attach an entirely separate tiller arm to the rudder post, with a key. People (including whoever fitted this), don't like doing it the proper way though, because it means cutting a keyway in the post for the key, which is difficult to do in place and it's expensive and a lot of work to remove the rudder for it, so bodges are common. A slightly easier method to do with the rudder post in place is to use locking bolts. Jefa.com has design drawings and manufactures tiller arms for both designs, although you can also have this made up by pretty much any metal shop (or buy a ready made one): https://www.jefa.com/ftp/steering/forms/Tillerarm_spec_form_v2-2.pdf

Can't really say without a picture of the whole thing, but it may well be possible to modify your leftover parts to become one of the above.
(formerly) Sailing Songbird  ⛵️ Bavaria 40 Ocean (2001)

tiger79

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 949
  • Karma: +10/-4
  • 2014 Cruiser 37
  • Boat Model: Cruiser 37
  • Boat Year: 2014
Re: Raymarine Type 1 Auto-Pilot sheared off
« Reply #3 on: February 06 2021, 11:33 »

The proper way to do this is to attach an entirely separate tiller arm to the rudder post, with a key. People (including whoever fitted this), don't like doing it the proper way though, because it means cutting a keyway in the post for the key, which is difficult to do in place and it's expensive and a lot of work to remove the rudder for it, so bodges are common. A slightly easier method to do with the rudder post in place is to use locking bolts. Jefa.com has design drawings and manufactures tiller arms for both designs, although you can also have this made up by pretty much any metal shop (or buy a ready made one): https://www.jefa.com/ftp/steering/forms/Tillerarm_spec_form_v2-2.pdf


Bavaria factory-fitted my autopilot, using the Jefa tiller arm you suggested.


Lyra

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 349
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: B36
  • Boat Year: 2004
Re: Raymarine Type 1 Auto-Pilot sheared off
« Reply #4 on: February 06 2021, 13:25 »
Indeed  the Jefa style tiller arm is the way to go. I manufactured a similar one when I installed my Type 1 autopilot.
S/Y Lyra
B36 / 2004

Jeffatoms

  • Able Seaman
  • ****
  • Posts: 112
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Ocean 38
  • Boat Year: 1998
Re: Raymarine Type 1 Auto-Pilot sheared off
« Reply #5 on: February 06 2021, 16:17 »
Hey Joe and Yngmar, thank you both for the thoughtful and thorough replies.  I agree wholeheartedly with you both.  After reading your responses, I feel semi-validated and will be taking the "don't make matters worse" approach by removing the control arm, leaving a manual steering option.  I don't like the idea of going out sailing with it on there in the wrong place with a potential to jam at the wrong time...tacking.

Jeffatoms

  • Able Seaman
  • ****
  • Posts: 112
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Ocean 38
  • Boat Year: 1998
Re: Raymarine Type 1 Auto-Pilot sheared off
« Reply #6 on: February 06 2021, 17:48 »
Thanks to Lyra and Tiger79 for validating the validation!  I am humbled to belong to such a group that always helps its members with great advice.

Jeffatoms

  • Able Seaman
  • ****
  • Posts: 112
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Ocean 38
  • Boat Year: 1998
Re: Raymarine Type 1 Auto-Pilot sheared off
« Reply #7 on: February 07 2021, 01:45 »
Update to you all and a follow-up question. 

I don't like the set-up and this morning I tried extracting the sole bolt holding the control arm to the quadrant.  No luck and penetrating oil doesn't flow uphill so I will now wait until the quadrant comes off and I can flip it over and determine our path forward.

My wife decided to take a look and after squeezing her head in there she popped out holding two bolts, one sheared off and one complete that appears to have simply vibrated loose and dropped out.  Two surprises were that the full bolt did not have locktite on it though it was mounted upside down...it was just a matter of time.  Secondly, the snapped bolt she found has a Phillip's head whereas the two other good bolts have 5.5mm allen wrench heads.

To proceed we need to remove the quadrant.  Do any of you have experience and guidance in doing so?  I'm really interested in avoiding any "gotchas". I did the same on an Edson pedestal/quadrant on my former sailboat but this one doesn't look like I have much ability to back off the cable tensioners.

If this is covered elsewhere or requires a new thread, please let me know.. 

Thanks again in advance!
Jeff & Sue Adams

Yngmar

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1594
  • Karma: +22/-2
  • Boat Model: 40 Ocean
  • Boat Year: 2001
Re: Raymarine Type 1 Auto-Pilot sheared off
« Reply #8 on: February 07 2021, 12:04 »
Quadrant looks similar to ours (although mounted upside down, which is interesting but probably doesn't really matter). To remove, first remove the steering wires, it'll be much easier while the quadrant is still held in place. Undo the double nuts on the end of each swaged stud while holding counter so the stud doesn't turn. You may also have to drift out the small pins retaining the wire on the far corners of the quadrant so the wire can be freed, as it doesn't look like the studs will pass through there otherwise.

One difference from ours is the single bolt protruding at the front. It looks like this may have be used instead of a key in the shaft. If so, or in any case, undo the bolt about 1 cm or just take it out entirely. Mark the vertical position on the shaft with a black marker (although probably it's left enough marks from clamping anyways). Then undo the clamping bolts and the quadrant should come off (tap with rubber mallet if not).

When refitting, make sure you put some dielectric grease between the shaft and quadrant. Then put the steering wires back in place, center both the rudder (emergency tiller is useful for this) and the wheel and then adjust the nuts on the studs until both wires are slightly tensioned. Then lock off with the double nuts. Check the steering goes easily and has no play.

While you have the quadrant off, check the large lip seal at the top of the (black rubber) rudder tube for wear. Mine was in a dire shape and needed replacing when I did this job. Standard part from an industrial supplier, make sure it's got a stainless spring though. I also used the opportunity to repaint the quadrant (aluminium etch primer + black Hammerite).

Picture of ours (I expect yours looks like this on the underside), with the large key still in place. You can also see the very worn old lip seal:

(formerly) Sailing Songbird  ⛵️ Bavaria 40 Ocean (2001)

Jeffatoms

  • Able Seaman
  • ****
  • Posts: 112
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Ocean 38
  • Boat Year: 1998
Re: Raymarine Type 1 Auto-Pilot sheared off
« Reply #9 on: February 07 2021, 18:17 »
A million thanks!  I reviewed your previous posts, Lyra's and Lyra's website trying to glean a step by step approach.  Based on your thorough explanation, I think we can do this.  It sounds like it doesnt take much de-tensioning and the only trick will probably be removing the slotted stop from the back. 

We own a Marine fabricating business (Torrid Marine) so I'll take it to the shop and see how we can improve what we have or we'll replace it with a better set-up.  At this point I agree that it appears our original dealer took the easy path.

Piotr

  • Swab
  • Posts: 1
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria 36
  • Boat Year: 2003
Re: Raymarine Type 1 Auto-Pilot sheared off
« Reply #10 on: October 27 2022, 18:32 »
Hi,
I am planning to follow your advice from http://www.sylyra.com/linear_drive_installation_e.php
in order to replace old plastic steering wheel autopilot on a 2003 Bavaria36 based in Greece.

The installation sheet on M81130: Type 1 Linear Drive 12 V mentions separate set of cables for the motor and a separate pair of cables for the clutch. What commands the clutch in your setup since the ST4000+ only powered the motor ?

Thank you in advance for your help,
Best Regards
Piotr
icipiotr@gmail.com