Author Topic: Bavaria 37 Cr., 2007 keel bolts retightening  (Read 9958 times)

symphony2

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Re: Bavaria 37 Cr., 2007 keel bolts retightening
« Reply #25 on: November 08 2020, 13:38 »
Same as the rigging- 10 years and replacement. I do not remember the source but the reason of the keel refitting every 10 years is that factory sealant ( glue ) is shrink or life time expire etc ...

Like many of these suggestions, this is another "cod" surveyor recommendations, although in this case its origins are more from the insurance companies rather than from any technical source. Rig failure almost always occurs in extreme circumstances such as on highly stressed racing rigs or on boats that are extensively sailed in stronger wind conditions such as long distance ocean sailing. The latter in particular invariably happens to boats older than 10 years so it is not surprising insurers ask for rig inspection and possible replacement before insuring boats for this kind of use. There was then a process of "mission creep" and surveyors covering their backs started to report in surveys on rigs older than 10 years and of course insurers started to require replacement before insuring. This is despite no scientific evidence that rigging wire or fittings decay with age - or even usage, nor does it take into account how the rig is designed, or particularly how the boat is used. A boat such as most of those owned by most people here that maybe sails a few hundred miles a year and rarely in winds over force 5 and is stationary almost all its life is treated the same as an offshore racer or cruiser. Unfortunately there is little systematic collection of data on rig failures (even less than for keel failures) mainly because it is so relatively rare and the claims are spread over large number of insurers so it is difficult to challenge the received wisdom.

There is a little more support for regular keel bolt inspection (and indeed removing keels and replacing bolts) - but this derives as I said earlier from wooden boats where the wood backbone had iron ballast attached often with mild steel or wrought iron bolts. Two things happen. The boat flexes and the seal between the iron and the wood fails and corrosion occurs in the middle of the keel bolts, known as waisting. Second, there can be a chemical reaction between the bolts and the surrounding wood, particularly oak and to a lesser extent some mahoganies causing decay of the wood. As I mentioned earlier I owned a wooden boat for nearly 40 years and I changed the bolts twice and removed the keel once. When I sold it last, it really could have done with the keel removing again as the seal had failed around 2 bolts. I still have three of the original bolts which clearly show waisting and in fact one of them came out in two pieces. I had quite a bit of interest in the keel bolt corrosion as a colleague of mine at the university did his PhD in the subject and used my bolts as examples in his classes.

When GRP first came in there was a move to bolted on fin keels and particularly twin keels so that boats could take the ground. Many of these were poorly designed, particularly the attachment and internal support. This was so bad on one model from a major builder had warranty claims that forced the company into receivership. Many fin keels of that era were poorly designed with inadequate fastenings and hulls that had insufficient internal reinforcement such that the keel would flex just under sailing loads, breaking the seal, and indeed on some boats breaking the (poor) casting at the fine ends.

However, none of this is remotely relevant to the boats we own and sail now - but the myths continue because they serve the interests of the people who benefit from the work they create.

Markus

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Re: Bavaria 37 Cr., 2007 keel bolts retightening
« Reply #26 on: November 08 2020, 14:56 »
The only thing I’ll say on this is that once upon a time the torque of wheel nuts were checked on Stalwart High Mobility Load Carriers at each timed service, irrespective of mileage.  When the age of the fleet approached 30 years, it was noticed that there were a significant number of stud failures. Metallurgical testing of the failed studs revealed that the nuts had been over tightened over time: what was happening was that because of low mileages being run by an ageing fleet, nuts were not being subjected to vibration loosening.  The act of checking the torque of the nuts using a wrench was gradually leading to over tightening which in turn led to stud failures.
So the servicing instructions were changed to so that rather than a time basis for torque checks it became a mileage based check or a check after the wheel had been removed.
This leads me to consider that routine checking of the torque of keel bolts without some real reason (such as a keel strike or repair work) is unnecessary and might even be detrimental.

There's a great deal of difference between
  • Applying more and more torque to a bolt repeatedly tensioning it over the yield strength of the material.
  • Checking correct tension of a bolt with a torque setting which ensures the bolt stays inside the elastic area of the material.

Your example clearly falls in the category #1 here.

HappyAfloat

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Re: Bavaria 37 Cr., 2007 keel bolts retightening
« Reply #27 on: November 08 2020, 20:46 »
Do insurance companies insist on replacement rigging after 10 years? My insurers don't.

geoff

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Re: Bavaria 37 Cr., 2007 keel bolts retightening
« Reply #28 on: November 08 2020, 20:55 »
I replaced all my rigging after 15years, it showed as much deterioration as the saildrive gaitors that Ihave now changed twice  ZERO !! Geoff

symphony2

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Re: Bavaria 37 Cr., 2007 keel bolts retightening
« Reply #29 on: November 08 2020, 23:19 »
Do insurance companies insist on replacement rigging after 10 years? My insurers don't.

Some do, some don't. The issue usually arises when the boat changes hands and the surveyor reports age of rigging. Insurers  then make it a condition of insuring that the rigging is replaced, or at least require a riggers inspection and report. As I suggested earlier, no real evidence that this is necessary from a failure or claim point of view, but inbuilt risk aversion plus the vested interests of those involved who benefit rule!

HappyAfloat

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Re: Bavaria 37 Cr., 2007 keel bolts retightening
« Reply #30 on: November 09 2020, 07:47 »
Quote
The issue usually arises when the boat changes hands and the surveyor reports age of rigging. Insurers  then make it a condition of insuring that the rigging is replaced, or at least require a riggers inspection and report.

This hasn't been my experience. My insurance company was happy to insure a 1994 Bavaria 320 with original rigging when purchased in 2016,  they were not interested in the age until it reached 25 years.  The same situation with a 2003 B38 bought in 2019.

I am curious, has anyone personal examples of insurers acting on the 10 year limit? 

symphony2

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Re: Bavaria 37 Cr., 2007 keel bolts retightening
« Reply #31 on: November 09 2020, 11:15 »
Couple of observations. First there are many changes coming (or indeed have come) in the yacht insurance market as insurers have been losing money for years. The result is premiums are rising, cover restrictions are increasing and in general insurers are being more selective in the risks they take on. Examples include an almost universal restriction on single handed sailing, typically to no more than 18 hours in every 24, higher premiums for coverage outside normal cruising areas such as extending south of Brest or La Rochelle or crossing Biscay. Premiums have increased significantly for UK owned boats for the Med, or crossing the Atlantic.

The 25 year stipulation is a variation on the now common requirement of a survey being required for any boat over 25 years. I owned a 1963 boat from 1980 to last year. it had a major refit, including new rigging in 1992 and a post refit survey that year. It was insured with the same company since then for the same agreed value. It was laid up in 2010, but last year when I put it back in commission they required a survey because it was 25 years old. As it happened I fortunately sold the boat  and the insurer agreed to cover for the short period it was in the water before the new owner took it over. He could not get insurance at all!

As for rigging, you will notice that many brokers now state the date of rigging in sale particulars specifically so that potential buyers are aware of possible replacement before making an offer and to avoid buyers using it as a bargaining point post survey. For example I am looking at buying a 1961 boat where the masts (it is a yawl) were replaced in 1987 and the rigging in 2003, followed by an inspection and replacement of the main backstay in 2016. So I know that my insurer may require at least another report and possibly complete replacement. If I take it further I will check with my insurer before making an offer - if indeed I get that far (the owner currently has unrealistic expectations of the worth of the boat!).

So, in the world of yacht insurance the past is indeed a foreign country, and don't be surprised if cover becomes more restrictive and premiums increase (or both). The easiest way for insurers to introduce new restrictions is for new customers or when boats change hands because they can involve a third party (surveyors) to validate their restrictions or specific requirements.

artemis

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Re: Bavaria 37 Cr., 2007 keel bolts retightening
« Reply #32 on: November 09 2020, 15:42 »
Hi

How the  ;) did this post manage to go from Keel bolt tightening to Rigging then Insurance lol

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Mike
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symphony2

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Re: Bavaria 37 Cr., 2007 keel bolts retightening
« Reply #33 on: November 09 2020, 18:52 »
Hi

How the  ;) did this post manage to go from Keel bolt tightening to Rigging then Insurance lol

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Mike
Artemis

That is what can happen with threads even when the OP gets the definitive answer within 6 posts (and actually finds it himself). The divergence starts when related issues that are arguably much more interesting get introduced and then take on a life of their own!

Yngmar

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Re: Bavaria 37 Cr., 2007 keel bolts retightening
« Reply #34 on: November 10 2020, 00:19 »
Thread locked, as it's drifted far enough. If you want to discuss insurance and rigs, make a new thread about that ;D
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