Author Topic: Taking a Vision 44 offshore.  (Read 6273 times)

Pauly

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Taking a Vision 44 offshore.
« on: June 12 2020, 10:41 »
Hi All, first post here so hello from me.
The Mrs and myself are planning to upgrade from our current vessel and retire from these shores and spend a few years wending our way south and west until we hopefully arrive at her homeland of New Zealand. And there we will stay and enjoy the delights on offer there.
We have a short list of boats we are considering for what we see as our requirements and the Vision 44 is now on that list.
We have gone through the pros and cons of this particular model elsewhere and are fairly happy we can live with the cons for the benefits brought by the pros.
So my question today is, does anyone have any experience sailing this model around the world, not literally circumnavigating, but hopefully you know what I mean. Our offshore expectations are that we will have to cross some large bodies of water(oceans) to get to the next cruising ground, and would like something comfortable for when we arrive. I appreciate that during an ocean passage it won’t necessarily be in its element, but would it be so dire that it’s not even worth considering this boat?

Over to you guys, hopefully with some interesting stories to share.

Cheers

Paul.

Klausen

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Re: Taking a Vision 44 offshore.
« Reply #1 on: June 12 2020, 10:50 »
maybe you can look at "sailing insieme" on YT. They sail a Bavaria Vision 46 on worldtour. There where no major problems till now.
KLaus

Pauly

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Re: Taking a Vision 44 offshore.
« Reply #2 on: June 12 2020, 12:18 »
Hi Klaus, thanks for the tip. Just had a quick look, unfortunately mein Deutsch isn’t nicht so gut.

P.

KiwiBeanie

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Re: Taking a Vision 44 offshore.
« Reply #3 on: June 13 2020, 12:58 »
A kiwi family that did the same journey you are planning in a bavaria

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFBGPXYMVOsOZfyHnKuRw9A

Symphony

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Re: Taking a Vision 44 offshore.
« Reply #4 on: June 13 2020, 14:12 »
The Vision 44 is a J&J design and essentially the same as other models of similar size from the 1998-2009 period except for the raised coachroof and from memory a deeper bulbed lead keel giving a higher ballast ratio and a bigger rig than a 44 cruiser of the period. So, in terms of offshore capability it would probably be better than the cruiser models of the same period. There are a number of youtubes here bavariayacht.org/forum/index.php/topic,2674.0.html in the Scuttlebutt section that feature similar boats.

The Vision model was pitched upmarket from the cruiser to compete with the Jeanneau DS range (among others) and aimed squarely at the private rather than charter market with its more comfortable cabins and higher level of equipment. No doubt it is these features that you have identified already.

It did not sell in huge volumes so you won't see so many reports about it, although it was tested by the mags at the time. However there is no reason to think that it would perform any differently from other Bavarias of similar size.

My only reservation about the boat for 2 people for a liveaboard would be the twin aft cabins rather than one aft and a storage/workshop that is a feature of the newer Farr design Visions. However the second cabin could be adapted for storage in such a way that it could revert to a sleeping cabin in the future.

Are you looking at Manahattan which Clipper have listed?

Pauly

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Re: Taking a Vision 44 offshore.
« Reply #5 on: June 13 2020, 20:06 »
The issue regarding the second aft cabin has been noted and discussed. Probably not up to converting to a workshop but certainly could be extra storage and possibly even a laundry if she gets her way.
We did look at Manhattan, but decided not to proceed with it.
There are a couple of other nice examples on offer at the moment, Netherlands and I think Portugal or Spain. Obviously a bit of a struggle to go and view anything at the moment.
But good to hear your thoughts on the viability of the Vision.

Symphony

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Re: Taking a Vision 44 offshore.
« Reply #6 on: June 14 2020, 19:20 »
The one in the Netherlands looks particularly nice.

For the washing machine, if there are only 2 of you then installing it in the aft loo might be worth consideration. Always think that 2 loos on a 2 person liveaboard is a waste of space and another thing to go wrong! Different of course if you have crew or regular visitors. Loos are high on the list of "hates" on liveaboards.

Pauly

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Re: Taking a Vision 44 offshore.
« Reply #7 on: June 15 2020, 09:12 »
Good level of inventory on the Dutch one. There’s another nice one in Henan but I think we’ve missed it as it’s already under offer. The only concern with the Dutch one is the blue topsides. We are constantly being warned against them because of constant maintenance to keep it looking good and apparently it’s a hard colour to match if repairs are needed. This one has been Awlgripped already so not so much of a faff.
We would probably keep the rear heads intact as we would expect visitors occasionally and it has also been earmarked as the foul weather canine facility.

Markus

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Re: Taking a Vision 44 offshore.
« Reply #8 on: June 15 2020, 12:36 »
Is the standard draft really only 1.8 m, with a one-minute googling could not find any alternatives for Vision 44...?

Symphony

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Re: Taking a Vision 44 offshore.
« Reply #9 on: June 15 2020, 12:42 »
There were two keel options. The shallow one which the Dutch boat has with a long bulb at the bottom and a deeper one (2.2m) with a shorter bulb. The one in Portugal has the deeper keel. I think they are both lead. I expect the righting moments are much the same, but the shorter chord length of the shallow keel may have a small effect on windward performance. You can see photos of the keels in both sets of particulars.

Markus

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Re: Taking a Vision 44 offshore.
« Reply #10 on: June 15 2020, 16:47 »
There were two keel options. The shallow one which the Dutch boat has with a long bulb at the bottom and a deeper one (2.2m) with a shorter bulb. The one in Portugal has the deeper keel. I think they are both lead. I expect the righting moments are much the same, but the shorter chord length of the shallow keel may have a small effect on windward performance. You can see photos of the keels in both sets of particulars.

Thanks for the info. Interestingly there's several ORC-certificate of Vision 44 with 2.0 m keel but no certificates available with a shorter keel or with a 2.2 m keel - perhaps the deep keel is actually 2.0 m...? I think "a small effect on windward performance" might be a bit relative term as I think going from 1.8 m to 2.2 m would increase the hydrodynamically effective keel area by about 50% affecting VMG fairly significantly when going to windward. Especially for offshore sailing, I would personally exclude the 1.8 m keel option if deeper ones are available...

Symphony

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Re: Taking a Vision 44 offshore.
« Reply #11 on: June 15 2020, 20:28 »
Don't think it is a simple as that. You may well be right that the deeper keel is 2m. However they are totally different keel shapes as you can see if you look at the photos. There is very little difference between the two on foil area or depth. The shallow keel has a narrow, long bulb and the deeper one a deeper, large. short bulb, so the effective foil area looks similar. In fact I am wondering whether the deeper keel (on the boat in Portugal) is actually lead as the shape and size of the bulb is similar to that used on other iron keels with a very large (relatively) bulb to achieve the weight.

For the type of use the OP is considering not sure that windward performance is a high priority given that the majority of ocean sailing for pleasure is off wind. A big selling point for the Vision over a cruiser in terms of performance measured by distance run per day is the greater sail area for light winds, and in the case of these two boats the folding propeller that is fitted. The latter alone should add between 5-10% of daily distance.

Markus

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Re: Taking a Vision 44 offshore.
« Reply #12 on: June 15 2020, 21:12 »
I only now looked at the deep(er) keel one in Portugal and you are right regarding the different keel shape so the performance difference may be less. Still, I think that having a deeper keel with it's associated performance boost in any kind of offshore sailing is preferable over the shallow(er) keel. Of course, I am sure the performance is relatively ok with the shallow keel as well, but as there's two options available then why not pick a better one...?  :)

Pauly

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Re: Taking a Vision 44 offshore.
« Reply #13 on: June 15 2020, 21:52 »
Good discussion about keels, although looking at the broker specs they both appear to draw 1.8m. Better sailing performance is never undesirable, as long as it doesn’t restrict mooring options too much. The difference between 1.8 and 2 is probably not significant anyway. We chartered a Duffour 44 in Croatia last year with a 2.5m keel. Didn’t present any problems in that part of the world and the boat actually sailed very well.

Symphony

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Re: Taking a Vision 44 offshore.
« Reply #14 on: June 15 2020, 23:00 »
I only now looked at the deep(er) keel one in Portugal and you are right regarding the different keel shape so the performance difference may be less. Still, I think that having a deeper keel with it's associated performance boost in any kind of offshore sailing is preferable over the shallow(er) keel. Of course, I am sure the performance is relatively ok with the shallow keel as well, but as there's two options available then why not pick a better one...?  :)

Choice of keel is only one of the many criteria for choosing one boat rather than another. The choice is clearer if you are buying new because you can specify your own blend of options. However when buying used you can only buy what is on offer, which of course reflects the original owner's preferences plus of course any changes or additions subsequent owners have made. Anyone who has bought a used boat knows there are always compromises and you try to optimise your purchase. As you say if the difference in depth is only 20cm (rather than 50cm as in the boats described below) the performance difference will be small. Once loaded up with 2 tonnes of gear and a radar arch plus bimini) suspect you would not notice any difference at all!

As it happens I have bought two new Bavarias and in both cases I chose the shallow keel option. The first was a 37 in 2001 bought initially as a charter boat but with a longer term plan to sail it back to the UK going through the French canals. This would not be possible with a 2m+ draft. Never really noticed any loss in performance most of the time in the Ionian because serious sailing is very limited and charterers never complained. It was only when I got back to northern waters that the less than good windward performance became an issue. Fortunately when I sold the boat, one of the attractions to the buyer was the shallow draft as they too wanted to use the French canals. The boat is now back in the Med.

My current boat is a 2015 33 Cruiser which came with a choice of 1.5 or 2m keels. I specified the shallow keel because Poole where I live and sail is a large shallow harbour and 2m draft is seriously limiting for many of the channels and anchorages. Also my regular passages are east to the Solent and there are two routes out of Poole harbour, one the deep water big ship channel and the other a short cut around the edge of a large drying sandbank. To make full use of the tides both ways means taking the short cut near low water and there is not enough water over the bar for comfort with a 2m draft. The short cut reduces the passage time by as much as 1 hour on a typical 4-6 hour passage. Equally 2m draft restricts access to many of the secluded anchorages around the Solent. Because I sail on my own most of the time ease of handling is high on my list of priorities so I have in mast furling, larger engine, bow thruster, furling cruising chute all of which mean that this boat is far more usable than the 37, even though it is just as heavy and has similar accommodation space.

Markus

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Re: Taking a Vision 44 offshore.
« Reply #15 on: June 16 2020, 07:58 »
Fully agree with all your points and clearly the shallow keels have been the right choices for you for the reasons you outlined.

That said, although the keel is only one part of the many criteria as you say, it is something that cannot (realistically) be changed where as many other things, equipment, etc can be added or modified with relative ease. And as both keel option of vision 44 are available at the market, I would personally prefer a deep keel one for offshore/bluewater sailing. I do realize that some others prioritize for example getting that extra bit closed to the beach higher and may choose otherwise.

Just to clarify: I have no doubt that both options perform ok offshore and get you from A to B...  :)

Yngmar

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Re: Taking a Vision 44 offshore.
« Reply #16 on: June 16 2020, 10:01 »
Draught of the Vision 44 is 1.82m (shallow) or 2.18m (deep) from the datasheet. Never trust broker details, they're notoriously incorrect. I'll upload the data sheet to the download section shortly.
(formerly) Sailing Songbird  ⛵️ Bavaria 40 Ocean (2001)

Symphony

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Re: Taking a Vision 44 offshore.
« Reply #17 on: June 16 2020, 13:21 »
Thanks for that. Confirms my memory. We looked at the Visions in 2007 when the charter management contract ran out on our 37 but the 2008 crash rather killed that idea! I remember the choice of keels, but don't recall actually seeing the physical difference. The only photos of the ones for sale that show keels are the one in Holland and the one in Portugal. Despite the fact that they are both listed at 1.8m they are totally different shape even though both are 2006 boats. Maybe when we are allowed to travel again, Pauly will get a chance to view both and shed some more light on the subject.

Leaving aside the keel issue, they both look lovely boats.

Yngmar

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Re: Taking a Vision 44 offshore.
« Reply #18 on: June 16 2020, 13:36 »
The Dutch Vision 44 has the shallow keel. Easy to distinguish because of the ballast "torpedo" on the bottom:

(formerly) Sailing Songbird  ⛵️ Bavaria 40 Ocean (2001)

Pauly

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Re: Taking a Vision 44 offshore.
« Reply #19 on: June 16 2020, 14:25 »
Keels aside, does anyone else have concerns about a spade rudder? I know most boats come with them nowadays and that might imply that they are fine, but people still point out the safety benefits of skeg hung rudders when talking boat choices.

Symphony

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Re: Taking a Vision 44 offshore.
« Reply #20 on: June 16 2020, 15:44 »
The Dutch Vision 44 has the shallow keel. Easy to distinguish because of the ballast "torpedo" on the bottom:



Yes, I agree. That is a keel shape J&J used on other shallow draft models like my 37. The boat in Portugal has a keel that is more like the later Farr boats. It does, however look very bulky for it to be the same weight (as the data sheet implies) if it is lead.

Keels are at the front of my mind just now. I am in the middle of re-coppercoating my keel as the original done when the boat was new in 2015 had failed in patches. I have twice done reasonably successful patch repairs but concluded this time better to start again. Blasted to bare metal yesterday and first coat primer applied. Second coat this morning, third coat in a couple of hours time. Hopefully 2 more coats tomorrow then Coppercoat Thursday if the weather holds.

Markus

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Re: Taking a Vision 44 offshore.
« Reply #21 on: June 16 2020, 16:27 »
Keels aside, does anyone else have concerns about a spade rudder? I know most boats come with them nowadays and that might imply that they are fine, but people still point out the safety benefits of skeg hung rudders when talking boat choices.

I used to think that skeg was the only way to go for serious blue water sailing. I still think that a well constructed skeg rudder is inherently more robust than a spade rudder, especially in any kind of collision or grounding. However, not all skegs and skeg rudders are well constructed at all - as are not all spade rudders so do not rely blindly on either.

I think a good thing with spade rudders is that you can easily drop and inspect it. Several of the incidents withthem have been due to bad design such as in case of Elan 333's in which there's a sharp taper in the rudderstock right at the are of the highest stress. I have not seen this type of rudderstock in Bavarias. If the rudderstock does not have any, or only very low angle taper, there's no cracks or signs of delamination in the blade and the bearings are fine I think there's relatively little to worry about.

 

Symphony

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Re: Taking a Vision 44 offshore.
« Reply #22 on: June 16 2020, 16:32 »
Keels aside, does anyone else have concerns about a spade rudder? I know most boats come with them nowadays and that might imply that they are fine, but people still point out the safety benefits of skeg hung rudders when talking boat choices.

Bit of a "yesterday" debate as just about all the designers and builders who were advocates of skeg hung rudders in the past have now gone over to spade rudders. Some like Frers and HR have even adopted twin spade rudders! While there are arguments in favour of greater support for the rudder you have to remember they came in at a time when long keels were giving way to shorter keels and rudders moving aft. If you look at early skegs they had to be strong because rudder loads were high (mostly unbalanced rudders) and stocks small diameter. Over time skegs got shorter and rudders given balance below the skeg to reduce load to the extent they became almost spade rudders with an external lower bearing. Not a big step from there to a full spade rudder.

While the theoretical benefits of a skeg remain, in practice spade rudders have been around on offshore cruising boats for well over 20 years. Apart from some well known design disasters such as the composite stocks used by US Hunter they seem to have proved adequately strong and reliable.

I don't know what other boats you have considered, but if you look back the 1980s were the heyday of the fin and skeg with production boats like Moodys and Westerlys in the 35-45' aimed squarely at the offshore/ liveaboard market. 20 years later they had all just about gone and boats like the Vision had filled that sector of the market. In the premium end it took a little longer for a similar transition. Looking at the ARC entry lists over the years will show the evolution clearly.

Buying used rather than new gives you an enormous almost bewildering choice. With your budget  you could get a premium 40-46' like a Bowman, Oyster, HR, Malo, Najad, Contest etc from 80's early 90's or a later Moody from the fin and skeg era or a newer more modern production boat like the Vision. However, the initial purchase price is misleading as the key figure is the total of buying plus the replacements, upgrades etc to get it how you want it. In general, the newer the boat, the less you have to spend post purchase.

There are of course lots of other issues to consider apart from the financial. Older boats tend to be less spacious, have smaller cockpits and more staid sailing performance. Sorting out what is important to you is part of the fun. Doing it for real rather than day dreaming can be daunting, but I guess most in the end come to terms with what is best for them and don't regret their choice.

Pauly

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Re: Taking a Vision 44 offshore.
« Reply #23 on: June 16 2020, 18:53 »
Our regular searches at the moment are HR 42, Najad 440/441, Contest 42-44, Malö 42, Bav Ocean 42 and anything else that presents itself in a similar vein. The Vision was a bit of an experiment to see if a more modern boat would tick some of the boxes. And it did. The only notable exception is the aft cockpit instead of centre cockpit. Everything else is pretty much there. And probably better sailing performance than a Swedish tank from the 80’s.
The problem for me is that the current ‘wisdom’ still says that you need an example of the aforementioned tank to sail off into the sunset with any hope of making it to the end of your journey. However, that wisdom comes from an older generation that sail Westerlys, Salars and the like and have little or no experience of modern production boats other than the rare horror stories of important parts falling off at sea.
What would be good would be to hear from someone who has blazed the trail, so to speak, and is living on and sailing a Vision of the sort I am looking at.
In the meantime it’s good to keep discussing the pros and cons, until such time that the current travel restrictions are relaxed sufficiently to allow us to go and buy a boat.

Craig

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Re: Taking a Vision 44 offshore.
« Reply #24 on: June 17 2020, 00:04 »
Basically, most modern boats that are CAT A rated will be Ok for world cruising.

A Bavaria will be as good as any, and probably better as they are production line manufactured and made in large quantities. If there was a defect in design of any model, it would be known fairly quickly. The Match 38 had a problem about 20 years ago but I understand a modification fixed their keel problem. A friend bought a 2002 model Bavaria 42 in 2010 ( ex charter) from Croatia and sailed it to Australia, rounding Cape Horne in the process.

The argument between skeg hung rudders and spade rudders is not really a consideration. The skeg hung rudders on HR models from about 2006 to 2012 were latter modified due to flexing.

The big issue is how the crew will cope, rather than how the boat will cope. Generally the higher the displacement/ length ratio the more comfortable and slower the trip. Also, the larger the boat, the more comfortable it tends to be. The main thing that sinks boats is modifications and maintenance issues. The newer the boat, the less problems you are likely to get.

Buy the newest boat you want to live on and remember, even an Ocean crossing is usually less than 28 days and you are buying the boat to cruise on for a number of years.

Craig
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