Another keel about to fall off

[Guy Walker]

Hi All.
We own Captiva, a 30 Plus yacht built 1994. We had her lifted for a clean, and upon cleaning, the yard discovered her keel to be swinging. The bolts used were small and inadequate. There were no spreader plates under the bolts, just inch and a half washers. The fixings are woefully inadequate for the loads applied. The keel has now been drilled, 22m stainless studding and spreader plates used, and the bottom of the boat beefed up. The last time we sailed her, it was a F7 coming back from the Channel Isles, family aboard. The keel was about to let go. If you own one of these boats, I seriously recommend you get the keel checked over by a professional. I love the boat, but I am furious my family was put at risk by such poor engineering. Interestingly, Bavaria themselves are not interested in discussing this, I wonder why?

[Symphony]

Guess they are not interested because it is a 20 year old boat that was built by a very different company and different designs to the current Bavaria range. What were you expecting them to do about it?

[JEN-et-ROSS]

Well Symphony, I would guess after a reply like that Mr Walker will be looking for advice on a different Forum next time.
   I'm sure those who own that particular model will appreciate the warning.

[Guy Walker]

Thank you Jen! yes the point of the post was to warn other people that this is a time based issue. We have owned her for 5 years, and annually she is lifted out. This issue has arisen this season. Symphony, the response from Bavaria I was looking for was technical help in improving matters, to investigate the cause ie poor design, and as a responsible manufacturer, if they felt there is a design issue, to inform owners what needs to be done. Otherwise let's just wait and see who else has problems. Being responsible if there is an issue is the first way to improve brand loyalty. Being an Ostrich is never a great response.

[Symphony]

Your boat is 20 years old. If there was an endemic problem with the design, it likely would have surfaced by now. However, few of those boats were sold in the UK, and the members of this forum by and large do not own older Bavarias. You may have better luck on a German forum.

As I suggested I doubt anybody at Bavaria has any first hand knowledge of that particular design, the company having changed hands at least 3 times and had 2 different designers of its boats since then.

Did not intend being negative, just asking how realistic is it that they can give you any practical help. Suggest you engage a good surveyor to work out a scheme for repair.

Alternatively you could try and track down Axel Mohnhaupt who designed the Bavarias of that era. As far as I can see he is still around as his name comes up on Google.

[patprice]

Nobody wants keel damage, sorry to hear your plight.
I may be very wrong, hope not, but it seems to me this model does not have a track record of keel problems. If it had the whole yachting world would hear about it.
Is it possible Guy that your yacht has been in an accident, eg a grounding ?

[JEN-et-ROSS]

Our Bavaria is even older than yours Guy (Bavaria 38 Lagoon,1991) and yes, they were built to a different and very high standard. The aim was to compete with Moody, and as Symphony pointed they went bust trying. The following might give an idea of the build quality at the time. Though the article refers to a Bav42 the build quality would be similar.
http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/archives/bavaria-42-lagoon/bavaria-42-lagoon.htm
I believe Patprice has got the right idea and a previous owner has damaged the keel/bolts and not let on. Could happen to any make/model of yacht.
Lucky you found out in in time................Bill

[Salty]

I agree with PatPrice, and think his comment is spot on. Keels do occasionally come off, but considering the number of yachts there are around, it is thankfully a very rare occasion and one where in all instances I've heard of in the past, has happened after a boat has been involved in some incident such as grounding or underwater collision, Cheeki Rafiki excepted where we may never know the reason. Guy, can you give us any further information on the findings at the time. You mentioned that the keel was swinging which would suggest slackness in the bolts. How did that slackness occur, were the washers becoming embedded into the hull of the boat, had the nuts started slackening off, were the bolts elongated allowing the keel to move around, was there any water ingress at the time? Whatever happened needs to be known, as much for the safety of you and your family, but also for the wider Bavaria community. Did you have a surveyor investigate and a report that you can share with us?

[dawntreader]

.... has happened after a boat has been involved in some incident such as grounding or underwater collision, Cheeki Rafiki excepted where we may never know the reason. ......

The MAIB?s investigation of the loss of the UK registered yacht Cheeki Rafiki can be read here: https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/keel-detatchment-and-capsize-of-sailing-yacht-cheeki-rafiki-with-loss-of-4-lives

The main conclusions of this report are attached below but a previous grounding was considered significant.

[Salty]

Thanks Dawntreader, I'd heard that a report was out today, but not until after my earlier posting. Having briefly scanned through the report there are several thoughts, firstly that the MAIB have done an excellent job in making that report, particularly when considering that the primary evidence is probably somewhere at the bottom of the Atlantic. Secondly that groundings are frequently given less credence than they deserve. Thirdly it would appear that a 2006 built Beneteaux had much the same method of keel fixing that Guy has on his twenty year old boat, particularly in regard to the large washers fitted which are much the same as I have on my B36 (2002). There are many other points that were raised, not the least of which is that Guy and his family have had a very lucky escape. Perhaps owners should be obliged to report all incidents where the keel of their boat has been in contact with the bottom so that a central register report can be provided to all prospective purchasers of secondhand boats. But would anybody be that honest, I guess not.

[Guy Walker]

Thank you so much to all of you who have responded, we really appreciate the input. The main issue was the keel bolts and their washers actually working through the bottom of the boat.  The bolts were found to be tight. Of course, she could have been bashed in the past, but the weird thing is she had been lifted every year of our ownership, and then, boom, this year the keel is in a parlous state. So, I will post some pictures in due course of the reinforcements to the base of the boat and the new 22 mm studding fitted to replace the weedy bolts and washers used. Also, lovely big spreader plates to spread the load. I do understand she is an older boat with the potentiality of a grounding, but the surveyor did not pick that up before we bought her. So, the take home from this? Get your yard to really check things out. The repair was 4000 pounds, money well spent. And now, I can completely relax about the blooming keel! Thank you again for all your help and input, really kind.

[patprice]

" So, the take home from this?"

You now know you have a really good keel setup. And a nice boat. Enjoy.

[DT]

How would I as a non engineer begin to inspect for the breakdown of bonding. Are their any tell-tail signs. surveyors are great , mostly but nobody inspects a boat like a user.
Coming from a aviation background we have "walk around procedures, an external inspection of everything and there are things a trained experienced eye can pick up quickly. If you are reading bavaria , maybe you could make a similar procedure (best done by written detail backed up with video) for your boats, I understand its a legal minefield but airbus do it , use their legals.

maybe we as a  forum should do it , bit by bit . pick everybody's brains......become a movie star.
 

[kleyton01]

Hello Guys, some news about this type of keel? I'm looking to buy a Bavaria 30 plus 1994, but I am very concerned about the 30plus keel system,  I would like to know more about it. Someone have any tips/pictures, that can share in order to check it by myself?  Thanks for this post.