Author Topic: Mirage has a Tender... now where to put it  (Read 3968 times)

MagicalArmchair

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Mirage has a Tender... now where to put it
« on: May 20 2020, 16:55 »
We have purchased on of these:

https://seamarknunn.com/acatalog/honwave-t38-ie2-inflatable-boat-air-deck-floor-3501.html#SID=642

On passage, we will put it on deck and deflate it, however, when in port (so the kids can easily get it out and bimble) or cruising around a destination, it would be nice to store it "somewhere"

  • I see here http://bavariayacht.org/forum/index.php/topic,1039.msg5729.html#msg5729 that a chap with a similar Bav to mine, with the bathing ladder at the very back, had to fashion two ally brackets to hold the snap davits, which meant disembarking was no longer possible as these would hold a maximum of 25kg. Does anyone have any photographs of their set up?
  • Bringing the dinghy on board (if we were to store it on deck instead) do you use the spinnaker halyard led back to a winch? Whats the best method for relaunch? Is there any way of 'gibbing out' (no whisker pole on Mirage as I had on my old boat that I used to use as a derrick!) to maneuver the dinghy outboard

Yngmar

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Re: Mirage has a Tender... now where to put it
« Reply #1 on: May 20 2020, 18:21 »
We lift our Portabote on deck with a 4:1 block and tackle attached to the spinnaker halyard (no winch, as there are no mast winches and working from the cockpit is too far). Works fine, and no poling out needed - one person can push the dinghy out far enough to get past the lifelines. Only when it's very windy (>30 knots) it can be a struggle to control it - we've had to put the painter on a bow cleat in that situation (at anchor the wind is always from the bow).
(formerly) Sailing Songbird  ⛵️ Bavaria 40 Ocean (2001)

Ziffius

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Re: Mirage has a Tender... now where to put it
« Reply #2 on: May 20 2020, 18:45 »
I have just been through a similar process having purchased a 2.6m highfield Ali rib. I used to lift my old Avon up onto deck by hand but had to work something else with the heavier rib. I don’t have a winCh at mast either. Tried using the spinnaker topping lift (the only bit of spinnaker gear on board) routed through some pulleys to the windlass - worked but was difficult to control on my own plus the sheave is seized I think. I reverted to setting up a 4 to 1 block and tackle  with a clam cleat on one of the pulleys and attaching it to the spinnaker lift, much simpler than my first idea!

Odysseus

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Re: Mirage has a Tender... now where to put it
« Reply #3 on: May 20 2020, 19:06 »
Webbing sling to 2 eye bolts on stern, and a  block on back stay, had this for 15 years works well for us, and lifts engine down as well.

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Symphony

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Re: Mirage has a Tender... now where to put it
« Reply #4 on: May 20 2020, 19:38 »
Wow! That is a huge dinghy for a tender for coastal cruising.

You are right, it is far too big to use Snapdavits, and even probably too big to carry on deck. You really need heavy duty davits for an inflatable like that, particularly as it really needs 10hp (it is rated to 25!) to make it move. You will find it a challenge even for 2 people to get aboard, and I doubt there is room to stow it in the normal place, upside down on the foredeck with the transom against the mast. Far too big for any sling arrangement vertically on the transom.

3m is really the optimum practical size for a tender on a 40' boat. That will give you a payload of 550-600kg depending on model and plane one up with a 5hp.

The Honwave is a nice boat, but for that price you could buy a Hypalon 3m Seago which is likely to be much more durable, easier to handle and carry 4 people with ease.

Easiest way to lift aboard is attached to the bow ring on the dinghy and a line to the transom. Use the spinnaker halyard - with the weight of a 3m it is possible without a winch, although Yngmar's tackle will reduce the load. One person hauling and the other controlling the stern with the line until it is high enough to clear the lifelines, then swing it over and upside down on the foredeck. Suspect the extra weight and bulk of a 3.8 would challenge even 2 hefty blokes! On my 37 I had a 2.6m Plastimo and often used to do it on my own.

Clivert

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Re: Mirage has a Tender... now where to put it
« Reply #5 on: May 20 2020, 20:05 »
On our2001 bav34 ( 3 cabin version )the dinghy lives in the starboard cockpit locker with our mooring lines and oars etc.
We launch it with a four point sling with a spare halliard.

Keweetoo

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Re: Mirage has a Tender... now where to put it
« Reply #6 on: May 20 2020, 20:46 »
I have a set of davits fitted to the stern (by PO) and this set up works well and simple to lower or raise the dinghy with little additional windage- although for longer passages we normally deflate and stow on foredeck. The davits are fitted to purpose design stainless supports and I guess would be quite an expensive job in the yard now-a-days.

MagicalArmchair

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Re: Mirage has a Tender... now where to put it
« Reply #7 on: May 21 2020, 10:38 »
Symphony - It is huge, I ummed and arred a lot about the size of the flipping thing. With the two of us, three (growing) kids and the ships hound, with cargo (the beach picnic) anything smaller would turn into "trips" ashore, which is a logistical nightmare if you needed to chug a distance. As its air deck, it weighs in at 48kg, which is the same as my old 2.7 (it had a very thick, plywood floor) and about the same as Ziffius's rib. With a 4:1 it should be manageable on my own - getting my old 2.7 on the deck of Triola in the same way was a nightmare struggle.

Mirage has a beam of 3.99M, so at 3.8M the new tender shouldn't poke out either side. Its hard as I can't look at the boat before I buy her, I may inflate it in the garden and rush it straight back to the chandlers to downsize!

I like the idea of snap davits as it would give a good platform for the kids to get on and off and to transfer the OB etc. I'm just not sure the transom is well suited without adding some brackets. Besides, if Mirage was rolling at anchor, the transom is no place I think I'd want to be?

Odysseus, I like your set up, where does the line aloft go to?

Clivert - Your sling, is it one you purchased or made yourself?

Keweetoo - Do you have any close up photos of the Davits and their SS bases?

Any more photos or ideas would be appreciated. Thanks for your responses.

Symphony

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Re: Mirage has a Tender... now where to put it
« Reply #8 on: May 21 2020, 11:43 »
I can see your problem. Tenders are always a compromise and in you case the tradeoff is between having the capacity to carry all your payload in one go and your ability to handle and stow the tender on board. If you are unwilling to compromise on the payload then you have to deal with the inconvenience of the size. To me the only sensible solution in that case is davits which will allow you to stow the dinghy complete with engine - although if I were going this route I would buy a RIB as you no longer need the benefit of deflating and stowing in a locker when not in use. This is just the sort of solution many cruisers in the Caribbean use where the requirement is for a tender capable of carrying large payloads (stores, water, people) long distances (boats are at anchor most of the time) in a regular basis. RIBs in the 3-3.5m range are the most common.

However if you are marina based in the UK and only use the dinghy for odd trips ashore then you really have to question whether the cost, inconvenience and difficulty of stowing is worth it compared with doing 2 journeys ashore with your payload. The 3m I suggested would take all your family (but probably not the dog if it is like my Lab!), but if you want to take a lot of gear as well just make two journeys. With a 5hp you will be able to plane so getting back for the second lot of passengers will be quick. The benefit is you don't need davits, although you might want a crane for the outboard, and for long passages it is easy to deflate and stow in a locker or down below. If you are on a mooring rather than in a marina berth, I can see the need for a larger tender to get you all out to the boat in one go, but in this case I would have two boats - a bigger one, probably a hard dinghy to be left on the mooring and a smaller inflatable stowed in a locker for use when cruising.

Although the 3.8m is relatively light compared with a smaller RIB you will find its bulk (length and particularly beam) a real challenge. Imagine lifting a boat that size with a halyard over the guardrails, either vertically or horizontally with a bridle and trying to stow when there is limited room (even worse if there is any wind blowing). Lifting it on slings on the transom is a possibility, although its size means it will dominate the stern, shut off rear visibility, increase windage and overhang significantly either size. Suspect the ends of the tube may be under water when sailing heeled. If you do go down this route you can use the topping lift if you have a rigid kicker, or if you have a split backstay you can attach a block at the split for a dedicated line. This is the arrangement I had on my 37 for the pasarell.

Sorry if this sounds negative, but if you look at other similar sized cruisers you will find the dominant tender size is in the 2.4-3m range. The only negative of this size is the limitations of payload, but when you think of the number of times a year this might be an issue, you may think it is an easy compromise against all the negatives that come with larger dinghies.

MagicalArmchair

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Re: Mirage has a Tender... now where to put it
« Reply #9 on: May 21 2020, 16:29 »
Sorry if this sounds negative, but if you look at other similar sized cruisers you will find the dominant tender size is in the 2.4-3m range. The only negative of this size is the limitations of payload, but when you think of the number of times a year this might be an issue, you may think it is an easy compromise against all the negatives that come with larger dinghies.

All fair points Symphony, and I'm grateful for your feedback. I just picked the big sucker up and looked at the smaller versions (socially distanced, through the window of the chandlery!) and we would definitely not fit all the kids in on a single trip. With two parents, and three kids, at some stage you will need to leave a kid/two kids alone at one end or the other if you must make two trips, which with the eldest being eight (even though he is very responsible) is something I'd prefer to avoid if I can (it'll usually be the time they find a new, exciting method of getting themselves killed).

They made a meal of carrying it out of the chandlery, two chaps shuffling along, one at each end. I thought I was in for it, however, it is actually not hard to handle myself. I carried it out of my boot and into the bat cave with no trolley or feeling like I was going to put my back out. Its quite a small, tidy package in its bag, and will slot in nicely on deck in front of the liferaft when deflated.

Lifting it on slings on the transom is a possibility, although its size means it will dominate the stern, shut off rear visibility, increase windage and overhang significantly either size.

She shouldn't overhang - beam is 4m of Mirage, the dubber is 3.8m.

I have a 12V pump - it IS an air deck. It shouldn't take more than 15 minutes to pump up/put away. Do I need to ever, ever put it on Davits, snap or otherwise? Do I just find an 'easy' way of lifting it onto deck. The weight will be no trouble for a 4:1 purchase, you rightly pointed out its the getting it over the GUARDRAILS that will be the issue. I am 90% of the time single handed, doing that operation the kids will be eating dinner and Daddy will be on deck wrestling the dinghy. I need a way of gibbing the dinghy out... OR rolling it over the guardrails without bending the stanchions.

Edit: wow, what about a couple of these? https://jimmygreen.com/rigging-chafe-protection/74981-meridian-zero-sailguard

Symphony

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Re: Mirage has a Tender... now where to put it
« Reply #10 on: May 21 2020, 18:52 »
Not to labour the point too much, but where are you going to put it on deck to pump it up and deflate it? The foredeck is the only possible place, so you will have to get it out of the locker, lug it along the sidedeck (on your own) and it will take up just about all the space on there. Nowhere flat to roll it up when you deflate it. Expect you will end up towing it everywhere. There is a reason why you almost never see dinghies over 3m as tenders on boats this size except on davits - they are just too big to handle. While your maximum beam is 4m the bits available to you (stern for stowing if you go that route and foredeck for inflating) are much smaller than that and even on davits it will overhang the stern which i guess is less than 3m wide.

Not sure why you are concerned about capacity with 3 children under 8. A 3m is more than big enough for that. Its payload is 550kg and rated for 4/5 persons. When my 2 children were young and right up to teenagers we managed easily with a 2.8m Redcrest.

I spent a good bit of my other life selling inflatables, most for tenders on yachts so have had this discussion many times with all sorts of owners/boats/crew, usage pattern combinations. If I were in your shoes I would spend £400 less on a PVC 3m such as a Seago Spirit 290 or 320 which will be more than adequate to carry your family and see how you go for the first couple of years.

The Other Woman

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Re: Mirage has a Tender... now where to put it
« Reply #11 on: May 21 2020, 19:05 »
I got Davits but the stabilizer's dug in on a port tack slowing me down considerably.
So I do this now and don't get charged extra in marinas.


Mick

MagicalArmchair

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Re: Mirage has a Tender... now where to put it
« Reply #12 on: May 22 2020, 10:13 »
Thanks Symphony, and the life of a PVC dinghy would be circa than 5 years I suppose, by which time we could upgrade to a bigger one (rib?) if we needed to. Its alarming food for thought indeed.

The below is to scale. So, in short it will easily fit on the foredeck, however, as you pointed out, on snap davits it WILL overhang the stern (so conclusion there is we'll scrap snap davits). The red block is where I would put some fastenings to store the dinghy on deck (there is no way it will fit in my locker)



So it would be stored in this location here, the challenge here being it will overhang the lines running aft (it is slightly wider than I have drawn in red here). The solution would be to create a platform for the dinghy bag to sit on, and be secured to when underway.



Handling it isn't actually that bad if I lift it with my quads, and lugging it around to the front of the mast will be easy... however... now I have the fear it is just needlessly large. Comparison between the two is below.

The size of the dinghy packed away doesn't decrease that much moving to the 3.2, so that the problem of deck storage will remain no matter what.




Symphony

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Re: Mirage has a Tender... now where to put it
« Reply #13 on: May 22 2020, 11:24 »
When it is inflated the best way to stow it is upside down with the transom against the mast. Later boats like mine have hold down rings on the coachroof to enable straps across the aft end of the dinghy. This will allow easier access forward (although will still be tight) along the sidedeck to get at the anchor. One side benefit of stowing it this way is that you can keep the forehatch open when under way. Not so important here be a boon in the Med.

I solved the problem of stowing the deflated dinghy on deck in the position you indicate by making a raised platform using a teak grid kit from Howells (in Cobbs Quay where you are currently) and a custom made stainless frame. An alternative for you is to relocate the liferaft to the pushpit and stow the dinghy on the hatch garage. Think you will find that it is almost impossible on deck to return the deflated dinghy to the published packed size, let alone get it in the bag. You really need to get it flat on a pontoon and use your powered deflator to get all the air out before you fold it.

PVC has come a long way since it first appeared on the market and in our climate and type of usage it will last many, many years. What kills them is UV so if you leave the dinghy inflated all summer in the Med its life is shortened, although my Plastimo survived 9 years and was still usable when I sold the boat. As I suggested earlier, if I were buying now, the Seago Hypalon would be my choice. The price premium over good quality PVC (like the Honwave) is much smaller than it was. Last year I sold my old wooden boat and with it a Hypalon Redcrest (same one as I had when my kids were small) that dated from 1972. No patches in the tubes and only a couple on the single skin floor.

Are you getting down to your boat this weekend now the travel restrictions have eased?

Rampage

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Re: Mirage has a Tender... now where to put it
« Reply #14 on: May 22 2020, 12:00 »
OK, here’s my take on dinghies, based on too many years of a boat on a swinging mooring and then 10 years or so live aboard in the Med. 
Hypalon v PVC.  In the UK, we used a PVC dinghy for about 8 years: it spend summers inflated in a rack, winters stored in a bag.  At the end of that, there was no significant deterioration in the material, so if your usage is similar to that, I wouldn’t bother spending the extra for Hypalon.  In the Med we had a series of dinghies, all PVC.  The Bombard Axe 4 that came with the boat was already on its second or third owners (based on the names on the dinghy!).  That survived well in terms of the tubes but the bottom fell out.....  It’s replacement was way too small and dirt cheap.  It’s problem, besides the size, was the glue gave up after a couple of years.  We now have a XM260, which is secondhand and about 12 years old now.  We made chaps for it to protect it from the UV and have been using it for about 5 years now.  It will probably go on for another 5 or 6 years at the present rate.

Size.  We’ve found that the 2.7 - 2.7 metre dinghies are well able to cope with 4 adults plus shopping or light luggage in settled weather.  It needs a bit of care taking when boarding but the dinghy isn’t overloaded.  With a 2.5 hp engine, we find that if you get the balance right (lighter people forward) then the engine pushes it along at a reasonable rate and you don’t take water over the bow when you cross a wake.  Not sure about adding an enthusiastic dog into the mix....

Stowage.  On long trips, we’ll stop the dinghy on the coach house roof, lifting it aboard between the two of us.  If needed, the Admrial or I can do the job single handed using the main halyard and winch.  For shorter (day trips) we use the straps as described by Odysseus.  Winter, it’s deflated and packed in its bag on deck.

Advice to the OP.  I’d re-examine the size you’ve gone for and consider if the compromise to a smaller dinghy might be an idea.  Final thought.  You might want to look at a hoist/crane at the stern for handing the outboard.  We have one for our small 2 stroke 2.5hp engine and it make life very easy, with no need strain backs and arms getting the engine on and off.  It’s easy to fit and recover the engine single handed.

captpatrick211

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Re: Mirage has a Tender... now where to put it
« Reply #15 on: May 22 2020, 13:55 »
Looks like lots of great ideas here.  We had a similar problem bringing our new dinghy on board.  We chose to use a pulley system connected to the halyard since we have no winch on our mast.  Haven't tried it yet this season but hoping it works.  Looks like the one in the attached photo. 

MagicalArmchair

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Re: Mirage has a Tender... now where to put it
« Reply #16 on: May 22 2020, 17:56 »
Looks like lots of great ideas here.  We had a similar problem bringing our new dinghy on board.  We chose to use a pulley system connected to the halyard since we have no winch on our mast.  Haven't tried it yet this season but hoping it works.  Looks like the one in the attached photo.

Yup I want to get one of these: https://jimmygreen.com/purchase-systems/668-handy-billy-41-purchase-system and some of these https://jimmygreen.com/rigging-chafe-protection/74981-meridian-zero-sailguard to help the dinghy roll over the guard wires. I pumped it up, and you know what, I think, whilst huge, it'll give plenty of space and we'll still be able to maneuver it... famous last words I reckon! Putting on the transom won't work, so its foredeck, or deflated.

Took all of 15 minutes to put it up, 10 minutes to put it away even with sucking the last air out of the thing. Far simpler than fitting the hateful plywood deck of my old dubber.


Symphony

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Re: Mirage has a Tender... now where to put it
« Reply #17 on: May 22 2020, 20:17 »
Makes a lovely paddling pool! Bet their mates are jealous.

Keweetoo

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Re: Mirage has a Tender... now where to put it
« Reply #18 on: May 27 2020, 15:29 »
Photos of the davit base attached as requested. They are Simpson davits  - http://www.cooneymarine.co.uk/pages/davits-swivelling-75.html
The main support retracts so when not carrying the tender does not increase overall length of boat (when visiting harbours drop the tender and retract the davit before harbourmaster arrives to collect fees!)