Author Topic: Bavaria 37, Cr. 2007 hull construction  (Read 2986 times)

Andriy

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Bavaria 37, Cr. 2007 hull construction
« on: May 02 2020, 16:07 »
Hi Owners,
Does anybody can help with drawing etc of the  hull construction in order to understand how strong is connection of the keel to the hull.
I do plan ocean trip after re installation and outside and inside hull reinforcement due to run aground ( small cracks found at the aft part with water signs ). The job was done on the high level but still bit afraid.... and want to understand if keel is connected to steel construction at this model of Bavaria 37 Cr, 2007. Thank u for help !

Brgds
Andriy

Symphony

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Re: Bavaria 37, Cr. 2007 hull construction
« Reply #1 on: May 02 2020, 17:58 »
No steel structure. The lower part of the hull is solid GRP and there is a moulded grid structure bonded into the hull to take the loads of the keel. The keel is bolted through the hull and the grid and at the factory is also glued to the hull on the outside face. If the repair was done following guidance from the factory in re-attaching the keel then it should meet all the relevant engineering standards for the attachment of keels as required by the RCD. However as you seem to have discovered there is always the possibility of damage when a deep high aspect ratio keel is grounded. The damage does not usually occur to the actual keel attachment, but to the surrounding hull structure that can deform in response to forces encountered on grounding.

So the advice is keep well away from solid seabeds and and you should have no problems. This may sound flippant, but many Bavarias (and other modern boats) have successfully sailed the oceans without any problems with the keel. On the other hand there are also many boats that have never ventured outside the Solent in the UK and suffered keel damage - simply because there are lots of shallow areas with hard seabeds that seem to attract careless skippers!

Andriy

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Re: Bavaria 37, Cr. 2007 hull construction
« Reply #2 on: May 02 2020, 22:58 »
Thank u for the true, detailed info !
Brgds
Andriy

Salty

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Re: Bavaria 37, Cr. 2007 hull construction
« Reply #3 on: May 03 2020, 04:09 »
.
.....................there are also many boats that have never ventured outside the Solent in the UK and suffered keel damage - simply because there are lots of shallow areas with hard seabeds that seem to attract careless skippers!

Going on from Symphony’s correct and very pertinent advice, it is unfortunate that so many boat skippers, and even professional marine navigators, put so much faith in both paper, and particularly in electronic charts, into thinking that what may be shown as a clear area ahead, is without any kind of danger that they need to be concerned about. Part of this I think may be down to the use in cars of GPS where if you are travelling in a particular direction, the cars Sat Nav will show that you are driving on the correct side of the road. It’s nothing more than an illusion, because the programming simply assumes that you know what you are doing and automatically puts you on the correct side of the road irrespective of whether you are there or not.

Electronic charts in almost all cases are nothing more than electronic versions of paper charts from which those electronic charts have been copied, along with both all of their attributes as well as all of their faults. Because GPS very frequently provides ones position to several decimal places, people start to think along the lines of “Wow, this is so accurate.”  Unfortunately, while your position shown may possibly be accurate, it is just so much bullshxxx to assume that the chart has been surveyed to an equal standard of accuracy. Chapters 1, and particularly chapter 2 of “The Mariners Handbook” published by the United Kingdom Hydrographic Office (UKHO) give an insight into chart accuracy which it could be worthwhile for all to read.

Most of the paper charts produced by the UKHO contain a small inset diagram showing the outline of the charted area and which also shows the dates when different parts of that area were surveyed. In very many cases those surveys date back to the mid 1800s. During those years GPS had not been invented, neither were there echo sounders, or side scan sonar, and radio communications also did not exist. As a result the degree of coverage of sea bed surveys such as those that we can have today, simply did not exist.

You might say or think that charts have been corrected up to date since those days, and yes they have, but in many instances they have not been re-surveyed. The difference is that a corrected chart means only that a number of small corrections have been applied up to the present date, but it does not mean that everything that currently exists on an area of sea bed is faithfully shown unless there is a statement somewhere on the chart that full sea floor coverage has been achieved.

The point of all of the foregoing is that charts, whether paper or electronic, should, as stated in The Mariners Handbook “be used with caution.” Sometimes things exist that neither you or the hydrographers know about, and some of them could give your keel an almighty thump, so that while the kind of carelessness that Symphony mentioned is one thing, it is also pretty gung ho careless to assume that your bright shiny new chart plotter along with its brand new electronic chart is giving you all of the navigational information you might need.

Thoroughly study your charts, and try to understand their limitations, also if you see some symbol shown on your chart but which you don’t know for sure what it is because you have not looked up the meaning of that symbol in your onboard copy of “The List of Chart Symbols,” then keep well away from it.

ICENI

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Re: Bavaria 37, Cr. 2007 hull construction
« Reply #4 on: May 03 2020, 09:28 »
Continuing from Salty's comments, I have recently returned from Greece where I had spent some twelve years or so sailing the Ionian and Aegean.

Quite often I left the chart plotter on whilst at anchor overnight to have some indication and of anchor drag.   In the morning I found that (apparently) the boat had traveled over the adjacent land!!!   Other friends found the same.

The cause:-   Chart information that had been transferred to electronic charts that were from surveys done many many years ago.   

Beware of chart information taken from very old charts!

Symphony

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Re: Bavaria 37, Cr. 2007 hull construction
« Reply #5 on: May 04 2020, 12:54 »
When I had my boat in the Ionian, I used C Map charts on the plotter which as suggested used data that was often old and contradictory. My favourite memories are first always gong over the headland to the east of the entrance to Lakka, crossing the school yard before tying up (correctly) on the quay; second entering Fiskardo with the plotter correctly showing the track up to the quay and then zooming in on the plotter to see the boat icon suddenly jump inland behind Tassias Taverna - a building that has been there since the 18th century.

The second example illustrate a different, and in a way more important point about the accuracy or otherwise of electronic charts. Most are vector charts, that is they are constructed within the plotter software from stored data which may well have come from a variety of sources rather than from a specific paper chart. The advantage of this is that there can be a choice of which data to show, typically the software selects more detailed data the more you zoom in. The downside is that at different levels of zoom the data for a specific feature such as a rock may be from different sources depending on the level of zoom. So, in my Fiskardo example the detail of the quayside at maximum zoom is different from the data used for the smaller scale level used for entering the harbour.

Returning to the original question. In general keel attachments have huge margins of safety in relation to the normal sailing loads. There has been much research carried out into keel failures which shows that almost all have involved grounding or hitting underwater obstructions. There are examples of structural failures, but invariably they involve racing boats and may be traced to either design or manufacturing deficiencies. The trend toward deeper, high aspect ratio keels is a consequence of the sort of performance and accommodation preferences of today's buyers. For most, deep draft is not a problem and they don't sail in tidal waters or in places where there are underwater obstructions. This is a typical example of how boats reflect the type of sailing owners do, but of course not every buyer fits that mould, and there are many parts of the world where this type of boat is not ideal and you can see many examples of different designs dominating other markets. Shallow draft centreboard boats on the east coast of USA, long shallow keels and twin keels in the UK, long keels with sloping leading edges in Scandinavia, steel boats with shallow keels or aluminium with centreboards in the Pacific etc.

However most of us have to accept what is available on the market, recognising that there will always be compromises. The 37 in question is a very capable sailing boat that meets most of the requirements for cruising in coastal or offshore waters. Not the best for high latitude sailing, or exploring shallow waters such as tidal estuaries or coral fringed Pacific islands. The important thing is to take account of the potential weaknesses and adjusting one's sailing strategy accordingly.

Craig

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Re: Bavaria 37, Cr. 2007 hull construction
« Reply #6 on: May 04 2020, 22:22 »
The Hull construction of Bavarias is very good, as it is with many other large manufacturers. If a problem occurs with a mass produced boat, there is likely to be a number of failures that are reported. You may remember in the early 2000s that a keel failure in a Match 38 resulted in these boats having their keel reinforced further.

Bavaria keels are glued to the hull and bolted to a fibreglass grid as mentioned above. The glue alone is so strong that it will often hold the keel on, even if all keel bolts are removed. In groundings, the hull, usually at the forward end of the keel and at the aft end will be deformed or damaged. Make sure these areas are reinforced after any repairs after a grounding. It is also wrong to think that because a boat is much cheaper today ( compared with wages) and often lighter, that they are somehow inferior to older style of boats. Newer materials, better design, use of computerised calculations of stresses mean that generally, the newer the design, the better it is.

In regard to navigation, I think that electronic charts get some unwarranted adverse opinions, particularly in regard to loss of features when zoomed out. It is correct that that you can get into strife when zoomed out, but this also occurs on paper charts where the wrong chart is referenced. Using large scale charts rather than referring to the chartlets can also cause problems. The big problem with electronic charts is their small size compared to paper charts, resulting in the user often using the wrong zoom level. The larger the electronic chart screen size the better.

Interesting that while using electronic charts for the last 12 years in the Med, Britain and Australia I have only had 2 places where the chart was " playing up". Once was also in Lakka, in Greece and the other near a military base in SW Turkey. Chart accuracy also varies but this is common to paper and electronic charts.

Craig
" Shirley Valentine"
Gold Coast
Australia

Salty

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Re: Bavaria 37, Cr. 2007 hull construction
« Reply #7 on: May 05 2020, 06:10 »
Correction to my reply (No. 3) above.

Just to remind myself I took another look online this morning at The Mariners Handbook Np 100, and note that there is a new 2020 edition in which many of the points regarding chart accuracy that I have been making for many years both here and elsewhere as well as to ships officers during safety surveys onboard ships, are now included in a revised chapter 2. There they have expanded on the bare bones information provided in chart “Source Data” diagrams, to give an insight into the surveying methods that were available to mariners back in the mid 1800s, such as, for example, the all singing and all dancing hand lead line for measuring depths, but which might often miss isolated dangers such as underwater mountain tops etc. They have however mentioned that echo sounders were available from around 1917 and that side scan sonar enabling full sea floor coverage, became available in the 1970s.
The book, despite being drier than Sahara dust in places, it really is worth a read of those first two chapters. There are sites online where they can be accessed free of charge, or for about £60 you can download an official digital version.