Author Topic: Guard rail gates. (Read 6191 times)

Sitesurfer · « **on:** December 24 2019, 19:13 »

So, any suggestions on the ideal place for a gate in the guide rails?
I've currently got a bent stanchion off and am replacing the guard wires so nows a good a time as any to fit them.

I've kind of assumed that the "fattest bit" is the obvious choice but that seems rather forward to me - anyone got a suggestion?
I'm attempting to make life easier for my (very) short wife who needs a step and hoist at the moment!

Symphony · « **Reply #1 on:** December 24 2019, 23:58 »

Nice idea, but not easy or cheap to do as you need two totally new 2 point U shaped stanchions and bases each side, a new one just in line with the front of the cockpit and another to replace the next one forward plus new guard rail wires and 8 extra terminals if you want to replicate the Bavaria design of the era. You won't find many 36s like yours fitted with gates as they were an expensive option when new, but if you google for images of Bavaria 40 or upwards you will get plenty of images of what they looked like.

A possible alternative is to use the design on the later Farr designed boats, 33/4 and 37 which has the gate between the pushpit and a U shaped double base stanchion in line with the front of the cockpit. Again google for images. This is simpler, but does mean you cannot have dodgers alongside the cockpit. I have this on my 33 and it works really well for me as I am not as flexible as I was! - but I moor stern to so boarding is easier.

You might be able to buy the double stanchions (only one each side needed) from Clipper, but I am not sure whether the bases are compatible with the toe rail on your boat. Otherwise it is a custom fabrication job. Either way it will not be cheap. Don't be tempted to use the standard single point stanchions as they are not designed to take the tension or the loads when they are used as fixed end points for guard rails. If you look at any boat with gates you will find they have some form of bracing strut to make the stanchion rigid or the U shaped double stanchion that Bavaria use.

Jeff Jones · « **Reply #2 on:** December 25 2019, 14:56 »

I added these gates to my Bav 34, i purchased the gates from Marine Maga store (in UK) back in 2015, they were £42each.

I bought a couple of bases from Clipper and as I had to toe rail off to re-bed and reseal the stanchion bases I modified the bases so they didn't bend so easily and interlocked better on the toe rail.

Its a easy job apart from needing two people and trying to access the stanchion bolts in each of the cupboards, but the is a removal piece of wood strip in the top of each cupboard.

Yngmar · « **Reply #3 on:** December 25 2019, 16:27 »

Gate (double) stanchions are widely available, cheapest from yachtshop.eu (several designs/prices), but SVB has them at a premium too.

Our 40 Ocean came with gates but for us they're hardly worth having and very costly when we renewed the guardrails due to lots of extra fittings needed. We rarely even open them and usually just climb over. When med mooring you won't use them at all and they're a big waste of money.

If you do have less agile crew, they can make sense though. In that case I would absolutely position them at the shrouds, because it gives people something sturdy to pull themselves up with and they're also near the beamiest part of the boat. Additionally, they're far enough forward that when berthed bows in on a short finger pontoon you still end up stepping onto the pontoon rather than into the water!

Ours are right where the centre-cockpit has the foot step out of the cockpit, which seems nice at first glance, but they interfere with the Bimini supports and are too far aft for above mentioned short finger pontoons that you sometimes end up at.

Lastly, make sure you use good quality pelican hooks and not cheap snapshackles like Bavaria did. The snapshackles don't have enough leverage and are difficult to close and also harder to open. The crew hated them and when renewing them this year I spent a bit more on some nice pelican hooks instead.

Sitesurfer · « **Reply #4 on:** December 26 2019, 12:37 »

Thanks for all the replies, with regard to the expense side of things - I'm already minus guard rails as they are being completely replaced anyway and have removed one stanchion which is bent like a banana (not me) which kind of puts me in the right place to think about this.

I did my research and have located both gate stanchions and the feet for the rail, so that's all taken care of.

With regard to the opinions on placement (which is really really my worry) - if I place them at the stays I repeat the problems we have now in that we already need either a box or a double fender step to get the wife on and off (as no-one needs to be reminded just how high the topsides are!) so my 'kind of logical' solution was the fat bit rear of the shrouds slightly forward of the cockpit.
I had not considered the option of a long gate (ie: from the pushpit) but that's a neat idea.

We moor mainly bows-to, in the South West of the UK (for now) and so its mainly alongside pontoons and deep fingers, although having said that we intend to strike out his year for the likes of the IOS and Jersey and maybe even France if we ever get any weather that allows us to have more than 3 days in a row which work.

From memory, the aft deck section seems slightly lower than the bows - however my main worry is that inexperienced crew and the wife will use the gate to heave themselves on board causing damage to the stanchions -hence why I thought I'd ask about current opinion.

Sitesurfer · « **Reply #5 on:** December 26 2019, 12:41 »

Quote from: Jeff Jones on December 25 2019, 14:56

I added these gates to my Bav 34, i purchased the gates from Marine Maga store (in UK) back in 2015, they were £42each.

I bought a couple of bases from Clipper and as I had to toe rail off to re-bed and reseal the stanchion bases I modified the bases so they didn't bend so easily and interlocked better on the toe rail.

Its a easy job apart from needing two people and trying to access the stanchion bolts in each of the cupboards, but the is a removal piece of wood strip in the top of each cupboard.

I really like the idea of the base that you have there, did you have those made especially? If you did, would you be willing to share the fabricator's details?

Symphony · « **Reply #6 on:** December 26 2019, 17:34 »

No simple answer to location. On an aft cockpit boat the "standard" location forward of the cockpit is the best compromise with the 2 fixed double stanchions located so that the grab rail on the coachroof acts as a second grab point when you are standing on the toe rail if necessary. However, the fixed stanchions are strong enough to heave yourself up. They don't really remove the need for a step up from a low pontoon, but obviously you won't have to stretch over the guard rail.

The single type such as I have is OK, but does have only one heaving point, and there is not a good grab point for the other hand - in mine I use one of the winches on the coaming. It may also be too far aft if you berth bow first on a short finger such as in some marinas in France.

Perhaps wandering round a marina and looking at gate arrangements on existing boats will help. BTW, gates and a boarding step/ladder make boarding from a dinghy much easier and safer.

Sitesurfer · « **Reply #7 on:** December 30 2019, 10:23 »

Cheers all, after a long discussion with the wife - she wants to put the project on hold for a year or so as she wants to get used to the boat more before we spend money on something we might not actually use enough to justify the expense.

artemis · « **Reply #8 on:** December 31 2019, 05:45 »

Wise choice I think its ok having gates if there are something there to pull yourself through the opening, I've a Bavaria 34 and there is no way I would install them especially when someone will end up grabbing the stanchion to pull themselves onboard and low and behold you have a bent stanchion. Get a fender step and have it beside the forestry to pull yourself onboard or go in starn first to a finger pontoon and walk onboard

Mike
Artemis

Symphony · « **Reply #9 on:** December 31 2019, 09:19 »

If you have proper double stanchions for the gate there is no possibility of needing to use a stanchion to pull on - that is the whole point of having gates! Their real value comes if you need to board from a finger or alongside from a dinghy, and of course more useful on larger boats with higher topsides and inboard mounted mast shrouds where the only thing to hang onto is indeed a stanchion. A ladder or steps may still be needed for high topsides.

Jeff Jones · « **Reply #10 on:** January 03 2020, 21:57 »

Sitesurfer

In response to your question about the stanchion bases. The factory fit bases are not great they just sit up against the toe rail - Bavaria improved them a couple of years after my boat was built.. The ones on circa 2003 have a small cast bead the hooks under the toe rail. (Clipper photo below).

I TIG welded a small plate on the back of my bases and ground a hook onto it...my bases now interlock with the toe rail - but not too well so that if I ever catch the stanchion they will still unlock and not damage the toe rail or top side.

The first 3 picture are clippers, the last 3 show my modified bases before I re-polished them

Sitesurfer · « **Reply #11 on:** January 05 2020, 23:13 »

Thanks for that!
I have the version which has the clip under the toe rail. Your solution is very neat.a

Jackho · « **Reply #12 on:** January 28 2020, 20:26 »

Hi folks ... read with interest your comments re.guard rail gates. A combination of the ageing process and needing hip surgery necessities me fitting these to my boat. If I’m going to sail again this coming season I must have these fitted.
Any further advice peculiar to the 37 will be appreciated.
Have already agreed they must be next the shrouds for obvious reasons already discussed.
My problem so far is I cannot find gates the height I need 24in / 35cm same as stanchions ??any comment.?
Also where can the base be sourced - same as existing .
I also would like advice regarding fixing the bases etc. Are they screwed or bolted onto deck?
All advic welcomed .
Kind regards
Jackho

Salty · « **Reply #13 on:** January 28 2020, 21:16 »

Quote from: Jackho on January 28 2020, 20:26

Hi folks ... read with interest your comments re.guard rail gates.
.
.
Have already agreed they must be next the shrouds for obvious reasons already discussed.
My problem so far is I cannot find gates the height I need 24in / 35cm same as stanchions ??any comment.?
.
Kind regards
Jackho

Sorry to hear Jackho about the hip problems, that’s a bit of a downer, I too will need surgery in the not too distant future to remove cataracts, or I’ll not be able to see to navigate.

However, in regard to the height of the gates, and if push comes to shove, you could always get your local stainless steel fabricating shop to cut or extend them to the height you need.

Symphony · « **Reply #14 on:** January 28 2020, 23:11 »

Quote from: Jackho on January 28 2020, 20:26

Hi folks ... read with interest your comments re.guard rail gates. A combination of the ageing process and needing hip surgery necessities me fitting these to my boat. If I’m going to sail again this coming season I must have these fitted.
Any further advice peculiar to the 37 will be appreciated.
Have already agreed they must be next the shrouds for obvious reasons already discussed.
My problem so far is I cannot find gates the height I need 24in / 35cm same as stanchions ??any comment.?
Also where can the base be sourced - same as existing .
I also would like advice regarding fixing the bases etc. Are they screwed or bolted onto deck?
All advic welcomed .
Kind regards
Jackho

Not sure where you are looking but Bavaria stanchions are standard sizes and as a number of earlier posts show gate stanchions are readily available. Look at my first post which explains what you need to buy to replicate the original Bavaria design.

It is not common to have the gates near the mast and shrouds - have a look at photos of boats (and actual boats) and you will see that they are placed just forward of the cockpit, with the aft gate stanchion in the same position as the first existing stanchion. The way to use them is to use the two gate stanchions as supports to pull yourself up and then transfer the load to the grab rail on the coachroof or if you have them, a grab handle on the sprayhood. If you have high topsides and low pontoon or boarding from a dinghy you may well still need a step. The big advantages of gates is that they give you two strong secure handholds to pull yourself up and avoid the need to step over 24" high guardwires. I suggest you find a similar boat fitted with gates and try them out to see how they work for you.

As to bases it depends on which 37 you have. The earlier ones (2000-2002 like the one I had) used fabricated stainless steel ones as shown in Jeff Jones post and the later (2006 on) ones had the cast aluminium ones. You need to check which type you have, but the principle is the same. They hook under the toe rail and the inboard end is bolted through the deck. Each gate needs two bases, but for the aft one you can use an existing base for one leg. All the new ones will need holes drilling through the deck and access inside for the nuts. Google Bavaria 37 images and there are many photos of boats fitted with the factory gates.

Long winded to describe, but once you have seen a boat fitted with gates it all becomes very obvious. Remember, though that it is a big and costly job, particularly if you have to pay somebody to do it.

Yngmar · « **Reply #15 on:** January 29 2020, 08:48 »

Quote from: Jackho on January 28 2020, 20:26

My problem so far is I cannot find gates the height I need 24in / 35cm same as stanchions

Maybe you'll find more if you do the metric conversion correctly, which results in about 60cm height instead of 35

Plenty available at that height last I looked (yachtshop.eu, SVB).

Jackho · « **Reply #16 on:** January 30 2020, 20:56 »

Yes Yngmar ... Thank you for correction. (Age related me thinks)

Salty · « **Reply #17 on:** January 31 2020, 03:02 »

You’re not alone Jackho, according to the tally noted in the banner at the start of this topic, it has been read 492 times so far, and only Yngmar had realised there was a discrepancy in the calculation !!

So what happened in those other 491 readings 🙈🙊🤪

Jackho · « **Reply #18 on:** February 04 2020, 18:30 »

Further to my post , i have now procured the stanchion bases from Clipper Marine and Gates from Sea Screw.
Now not being near the boat at present I need to source end fittings to modify guard rails etc. BUT cant find the wire sizes.

Bav37 2006 cruiser.
Any further information much appreciated.

Jackho

SYJetzt · « **Reply #19 on:** February 05 2020, 07:47 »

On my B46 Cruiser 2005 i have 5mm rails (7x7) with white coating

Rampage · « **Reply #20 on:** February 05 2020, 08:39 »

If I recall correctly, the top rail is 5mm, bottom is 4mm. Our rails are not coated as it’s easier to spot damage.

Sitesurfer · « **Reply #21 on:** February 06 2020, 12:57 »

Just had our rails replaced with 5 and 4 mm.
Also had uncoated as the previous ones were shot to bits with corrosion under the plastic.

Symphony · « **Reply #22 on:** February 06 2020, 13:38 »

Just looked at a 37 and a 39 of similar age and the top wire is 5 mm and the lower seems to be 3 mm (but may be 3.5 mm), both plastic coated and the end terminals are Talurit crimped eyes. So the wires are made up with all the stanchions in place. There is a choice of end fittings in addition to the Talurit. Mine are swaged, also fixed with screw adjustable fork ends, but you can also get removable end fittings either Stalok cone fittings or swaged pin ends with screw on terminal fittings. These allow you to remove the wires if necessary.

Both these boats had gates. The 39 had them sited using the first stanchion position forward from the cockpit as the aft gate leg and the 37 further forward using the second stanchion position forward as the aft gate leg. The difference may be dictated by access to the underside of the deck to get at the fastenings. Either position is close to the maximum beam, but the forward one is directly over the mid cleat fairlead. The wires for the gates seemed to be 3mm with Talurit crimps and snap shackles. However I think maybe pelican hooks are better.

Hope this helps