Author Topic: Stay Sail  (Read 4972 times)

1simon

  • First Mate
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Ocean
  • Boat Year: 1998
Stay Sail
« on: February 21 2019, 17:06 »
HI All,

Our  Bavaria Ocean 38 has an inner stay equipped with furler for a staysail.
When I got possession of the boat 2 years ago, however, the staysail did not come with the boat.

I am now thinking of buying one .

Can anybody advise the size of the sail, and some thoughts or experience on its use? Is it used in conjunction with the 150% genea or just as a storm sail?

Thanks for any comments.

Simon

Yngmar

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1595
  • Karma: +22/-2
  • Boat Model: 40 Ocean
  • Boat Year: 2001
Re: Stay Sail
« Reply #1 on: February 22 2019, 09:19 »
It would be very small, typically orange and only used as storm sail. The reason someone fitted a furler on it is that in the conditions you'd want to use it (> force 9) you definitely do not want to go on the foredeck to hank it on or even just undo sailties and raise it.

For the recommended sizing I suggest reading Heavy Weather Sailing, which has a chapter on the subject (amongst a lot of other useful information).
(formerly) Sailing Songbird  ⛵️ Bavaria 40 Ocean (2001)

geoff

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 294
  • Karma: +1/-1
  • Boat Model: 40 ocean
  • Boat Year: 2001
Re: Stay Sail
« Reply #2 on: February 22 2019, 20:20 »
I have a removable inner forestay on which I raise a small orange hanked jib . In theory it is a storm jib but it is terrific for going to windward in anything above 25kt over the deck, two deep reefs and the orange thing and it goes like greased weasel poo. Geoff

Symphony

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 1106
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria 33
  • Boat Year: 2015
Re: Stay Sail
« Reply #3 on: February 22 2019, 22:43 »
Agree the most common use for an inner forestay is for setting a storm jib. However, it would not be normal to use a furler, but to keep it in a bag on deck already hanked on if there is any expectation of needing it. The sail is cut very flat and you need a separate pair of sheets and leads. It is also normal to have the stay detachable and set up using a tensioner or Highfield lever so you only set it up when you need it.
The alternative use for the inner forestay is to set a second genoa to use in conjunction with the normal genoa for downwind sailing. Twin foresail rigs (with main stowed) are common for long distance downwind sailing and having them set on furlers enable you to balance sail area. Would not be normal to have a 150% staysail as if using downwind the total sail area of both jibs would be excessive in all but very light winds.

As ever, worth talking to a good sailmaker about the alternatives to suit your kind of sailing.

1simon

  • First Mate
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Ocean
  • Boat Year: 1998
Re: Stay Sail
« Reply #4 on: February 25 2019, 16:09 »
Thanks for  your comments.
What about the possibilty of having the inner stay set up  with a smaller jib which would be used when winds go up e.g. above 20knots ( ?) and the furled genoa starts  losing shape and becomes a bit difficult to set up  properly, especially upwind? The genoa would then be furled in completely and the jib is furled out. Does anybody have any experience with this setup?

sy_Anniina

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 263
  • Karma: +6/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria 40
  • Boat Year: 2001
Re: Stay Sail
« Reply #5 on: February 26 2019, 06:33 »
I know one Bavaria 40 AC who has just what you described, a smaller jib on separate inner forestay and roller for those conditions. The setup is briefly described in Finnish on their "shared boat" website http://www.penelope.fi/Tekniset_varusteet.pdf page 14. I don't know the owners personally, but came up with their site when searching for information before buying our boat.

The sheets end up on coachroof winces or genoa winches, roller rope is on cleat next to stb genoa winch.

BR,

Tommi
s/y Anniina

Symphony

  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Posts: 1106
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Bavaria 33
  • Boat Year: 2015
Re: Stay Sail
« Reply #6 on: February 26 2019, 23:21 »
Thanks for  your comments.
What about the possibilty of having the inner stay set up  with a smaller jib which would be used when winds go up e.g. above 20knots ( ?) and the furled genoa starts  losing shape and becomes a bit difficult to set up  properly, especially upwind? The genoa would then be furled in completely and the jib is furled out. Does anybody have any experience with this setup?

What you are describing is what is sometimes called the "Slutter" rig - cross between a sloop and a cutter. It was popular with some boats in the 1990s but the main drawback is that use of the genoa is compromised by the difficulty in tacking with the sail set because of the limited gap between the stays. So the staysail effectively becomes the working sail and the genoa only used in light airs off the wind.

If you are going to buy a new sail then probably better to get a smaller genoa, say 120% that is usable over a wider range of wind speeds, certainly greater than 20 knots and better when reefed for higher wind speeds because there is less reduction required. The slight downside is that you may lose a bit of speed in light airs, but with a well cut smaller genoa (which is much easier to handle) doubt you will notice the difference except off the wind where sail area does count. In lighter airs, though a cruising chute or similar on a furler is a lot more effective than a heavy genoa.

If you intend long downwind passages then having your existing genoa cut down to match the new smaller working genoa would enable you to use the inner stay to set twin headsails.

Large overlapping headsails have fallen out of favour recently with a move to smaller headsails and furling light weather sails to fill the gap off wind. As ever, though which strategy you choose depends very much on the type of sailing you do, the size of your crew and how much you want to maximise the performance of your boat.

There is no one right way, but the suggestions above are based on my experience of my last boat and current one. My last boat was a 37, essentially a smaller version of yours, originally used in the Med where the large genoa was good for the usual light airs. However when I got I back to the UK where there is more windward work it was tough tacking with such a large sail and in fact I discovered pretty quickly that it actually sailed better with the genoa reefed even in lighter airs. When I changed to a newer type 33 one of the key factors in the decision was the much smaller jib (105%) which makes short tacking easy and better pointing. The sail does not need reefing until well over 20 knots. Downside is off wind performance, but with a furling cruising chute which can cope with up to 15 knots.

1simon

  • First Mate
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Ocean
  • Boat Year: 1998
Re: Stay Sail
« Reply #7 on: February 28 2019, 16:02 »
Thank you for your comments, which I will certainly take into consideration .
Being based in the med, certainly an assymetric cruising chute is also  an option. 

rbrtmccorkle

  • Second Mate
  • **
  • Posts: 26
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Boat Model: Barvaria Ocean 42
  • Boat Year: 1999
Re: Stay Sail
« Reply #8 on: February 28 2019, 18:52 »
Hi all - I have a 1998 Bav Ocean 42 that came with the "Slutter" rig described above.  Right now the boat is in Portland, Ore on the Columbia River and the stay is tucked away with the quick disconnect also described above, which keeps it out of the way when short tacking on the river.  I have used the Citter/Slutter rig beating outside and int Stait of San Jaun De Fuca  in lighter airs and in place of the Genoa in heavier air and found both uses effective.  After attending a seminar at the Seattle boat show on Storm Sails, I took the Stay sail to North Sails and had them put Reef points on the Stay Sail - effectively turning it into a Storm sail as I did not have one on board.  This lowered the sail count on the boat and added another tool to the tool kit. 

As this Stay/Storm Sail is on hanks and noting the issue stated about going on for-deck in rough Wx - would agree the decisions to use either as Stay or Storm sail should be made early and in advance of really ugly WX.

Bob - SV Chaos