B36 2002 - A couple questions.

[Sitesurfer]

Hi all, first post etc - in the process of purchasing a 2002 B36, 2 cabin version. Wife fell in love with the boat, seemed rude not to comply!

Anyway - I have a list of things that I want to do over the next few months but might need a few resources to get started.

1) I'm trying to find a reasonable size layout plan to scale so I can plan heater ducting routes, holding tank positions and wiring routes for usb outlets.

The ones I found on google are ok but really too small to be if use and I hoped that someone might have a file somewhere that I could get a copy of and do my planning.

2) I'm planning to fit a Webasto (had one before and like them) and I am assuming a 4kw version as the 2kw won't push the heat adequately through 4 outlets (unless you guys tell me otherwise). Although there appears to be a Mikuni version which might work (I found a post on here about that).

3) I'd also like to fit a holding tank, I see they were a factory item when new, has anyone got some pics of the factory fitted option so that I could copy the runs and the pipework needed (I've not had one before so excuse any ignorance).

4) Going to spec a cruising chute at SIBS, having not had a fractional rig before, is the spinnaker halyard exiting the mast above the genoa halyard (I forgot to check when I went to the boat this weekend), ideas on dimensions to ask for? Would use with my homemade ATN tacker thing.

5) Also going to price a cockpit enclosure at SIBS.

Gosh the card is going to get one hell of a battering...

EDIT: just found the download section... doh!

[Yngmar]

Welcome to the forums. Glad you found the download section already

For heater sizing, 4kW sounds about right for a boat that size. I'd look at a Planar though, which is as good as the Webasto, minus the cartel pricing.

The Spi halyard exits at the mast top, well above the fractional forestay and Genoa halyard. Dimensions should be in the manual.

For Cockpit enclosure, ask C&J marine at SIBS, they will have a template for that boat ready, which should considerably reduce cost as they won't have to come on the boat to template it.

[Symphony]

Suggest you talk to Toby at Keto Marine www.keto.co.uk in Swanwick about Webasto. They do all the installations in Bavarias for Clipper Marine. Pretty sure they will know the optimum routing for the ducting and installation of the heater itself.

Think the original Bavaria holding tank installation is to be avoided if it is anything like the one in my old 37 of the same vintage. I did not order it from the factory as it was an awful pumped system with the tank on the opposite side of the boat from the toilet. Best to try and install a gravity system with a tank in the locker in the loo compartment, which is what I did. Talk to Tek Tanks as they may well have done an installation in the same model boat. They are the best maker of holding tanks and systems - not cheap but the best.

Yes, the spinnaker halyard exits just above the jib halyard. Size of chute is in a way up to you as there are so many alternatives in cuts and sizes so best to discuss with several sailmakers what the options are. I would think a size somewhere around 70-80 sqm would be about right. I have just had one made for my later 33 which has a bit less sail area than your 36 and it is 65 sqm, but I singlehand and have it on a Selden top down furler. Works very well.

Far and away the best people on the south coast for cockpit enclosures etc are Tecsew in Gosport. They do all the canvas work for new Bavarias and Jeanneaus. Have a look on their website for examples of their work. John Bland, who owns it will design to your requirements rather than selling you a standard product. They are all one offs so usually no more expensive getting exactly what you want.

Exciting times. hope the sale goes through and you enjoy getting the boat together.

[Salty]

Welcome to the forums. Glad you found the download section already

1. For heater sizing, 4kW sounds about right for a boat that size. I'd look at a Planar though, which is as good as the Webasto, minus the cartel pricing.

2. The Spi halyard exits at the mast top, well above the fractional forestay and Genoa halyard. Dimensions should be in the manual.

3. For Cockpit enclosure, ask C&J marine at SIBS, they will have a template for that boat ready, which should considerably reduce cost as they won't have to come on the boat to template it.

1. A couple of the boat owners where I’m based have fitted Planars and are happy with them. I understand they are Russian copies, but as Yngmar says they are considerably lesser cost.

2. I have a B36 2002 and agree.

3. C & J made my spray hood and canopy direct from their own records and did not come out to North Wales to measure. It included all of the metal structure and fittings which were clearly marked to show where each piece fitted. They included a written instruction showing precisely where each of the primary fittings were secured to the boat and it all went together like a dream. I’ve now had the canopy for nearly eight years and it has been used almost continuously for that time with just a couple of repairs where it rubbed against a deck block and jammer fitted on each side and also in way of where it rubbed against the self tailing parts of the Genoa winches.

[Sitesurfer]

Thanks for replies, some great focused advice there.

It's becoming clear just how useful it is to have a boat manufacturer that actually made a few boats! My current/last boat was the last one in the production run of 94 of which I managed to find 7 owners who were current. It made community combined knowledge very sketchy.

All points were taken on board and digested. Must admit I have been guilty of assuming there is no holding tank - need to perhaps investigate further on Monday (survey)! All the comments seen so far suggest that it was fitted as standard, and sometimes even if the owner didn't want it..

With regard to fitting inside heads locker.
Did you mean the one used as a hanging locker to the aft of the loo? I assume by gravity fed you mean the effluent goes in the top and exits from the bottom via a valve/tee into the skin fitting for the heads exit? I assume you would also need a diverter from the loo to go either to the tank or to the outside world - clearly, I need to research this a bit more.

Spinnaker Halyard
There's a bit of string dangling from the spinnaker line exit on the mast, this I assume must have been the factory mousing line as there isn't either a pole or spinny on the boat (I've assumed one was never used). That's going to be a one-shot attempt at threading a new line!

Heater
I'll go and see what's available at SIBS and I also have a chap hunting for a reco unit (marine version) for me.

Enclosure
Points noted, I'll talk to them both and see who my wife likes - then I'll have an opinion

[Ricd]

Welcome to the forums. Glad you found the download section already

The Spi halyard exits at the mast top, well above the fractional forestay and Genoa halyard. Dimensions should be in the manual.

Surprised to read this.  My cruising chute that I purchased and installed this year on my 2000 B34 flies off a halyard that was already installed and labelled as SPIN and exits at the mast sheath just above the forestay/genoa halyard, not mast top.  From images I have looked at online almost every Bavaria pic undet chute I have seen is likewise, just above forestay.

Anybody else have more info on this?

Cheers

[Symphony]

re holding tank. Unlikely to be fitted originally as they were expensive options and as I suggested, not very good. You will find layout drawings on the Tek Tanks website and also on the Leesan site showing the different sorts of arrangements. Both those companies are at the show so you will be able to talk to them. As tek tanks make the tank themselves they will help you decide the best option - they were very helpful when they made one for me, making changes to my design to make it better.

A gravity tank can be very simple - the latest boats use them. Think of the tank as an expansion in volume of the outlet hose. So everything goes through the tank and out of the normal seacock. To hold sewage you just close the seacock and open it to empty the tank at sea. A pumpout fitting is also usually fitted with the outlet on deck. Clearly it needs to be mounted above the waterline and finding space for a 50-60l tank can be a challenge. On my 37 there was a locker above the vanity unit that housed the water pumps etc and by re-arranging those a bit we managed to fit a 50l tank in there.

Once you get the hang of the alternatives you can figure out the best way to fit one - although as I suggested Tek Tanks may already have done one so will know how it works.

[Yngmar]

Surprised to read this.  My cruising chute that I purchased and installed this year on my 2000 B34 flies off a halyard that was already installed and labelled as SPIN and exits at the mast sheath just above the forestay/genoa halyard, not mast top.

You're right! I was sure of this, but just checked and the factory installed spi halyard does indeed exit the mast just above the forestay.

Apparently Salty's does not though?

It's not difficult to move or install the sheave further up when the mast was fitted, so perhaps some are different.

[Sitesurfer]

More great focused info, thanks. The list of jobs in increasing.. so far I think I have heater, sea cocks, holding tank, cockpit enclosure, water pipes and diesel polishing circuit.

All good stuff and should keep me happy for months.

[Salty]

[quote author=Yngmar link=topic=2228.msg14245#msg14245 date=1537270131
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You're right! I was sure of this, but just checked and the factory installed spi halyard does indeed exit the mast just above the forestay.

Apparently Salty's does not though?
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Sorry, maybe I misunderstood Yngmars earlier posting.
My spi halyard exits the foremast just above the forestay, which is pretty near the top of the mast anyway, though not exactly at the top of the mast.

[Sitesurfer]

Just trying to get ahead of the Boat Show tomorrow, any idea what the asymetric spinnaker luff length should be?

[Symphony]

All the sailmakers will have that on their database. Based on my experience of going through this last year the best approach is to ask their recommendations explaining how you think you want to use it. If you are going for a straight sail (ie not on a furler) then the actual luff length is not critical but if a furler they will want to measure exactly to the tack attachment as this is critical to get the torque rope length correct.

[Ricd]

All the sailmakers will have that on their database. Based on my experience of going through this last year the best approach is to ask their recommendations explaining how you think you want to use it. If you are going for a straight sail (ie not on a furler) then the actual luff length is not critical but if a furler they will want to measure exactly to the tack attachment as this is critical to get the torque rope length correct.
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Bang on.  Your boat dimensions are on record. Ask the sail maker what he/she would recommend/ I bought a used chute for a fraction of new price.  Sail maker provided and we trialed 4 candidates he thought would be correctly sized. Ended up with something we are happy to fly and most importantly can cope with (wife and me) in up to 15kn with ease.

[Sitesurfer]

Got quote today from several lofts, prices ranged from 1.2K to 2.8K!

[Ricd]

I bought a secondhand one with ATN tacker and snuffer for £1k. Have flown it 4 times this season and really pleased. No idea of its actual size but gets the boat to hull speed in 12to 15 app and keeps her moving at 4/5kn in less than 10 apparent.

[Symphony]

Got quote today from several lofts, prices ranged from 1.2K to 2.8K!

There are so many different materials and cuts that I am not surprised at the range. Perhaps you need to decide on exactly what you want on both counts and then get new quotes. Unless you want something really fancy the price should be around the £1500 mark in 1.5oz cloth and in the size range I suggested earlier.

[Sitesurfer]

Got to say, was most impressed with the Jeckells and Crusader folks, quoted me for what I wanted (general purpose, wide angles) and were happy to chat about what I needed - just got to decide whether to go new or look at a used one - think I have narrowed the luff length down to about 40ft now looking at the dimensions quoted.

[Sitesurfer]

Happy to say I duly completed today.
Now the work begins

[Sitesurfer]

Almost a month on now and I've had a lot of fun working on a boat that allows me to actually get into places to fettle!

Webasto Evo 40 almost finished installing now, putting the 90mm ducting into my satisfaction took a while, every inch of it is thermo lagged and secured.

I'm then on to the windlass fit, had to bite the bullet and purchase 50m of new chain, new anchor and a Quick 2000 windlass as the whole lot was u/s.
With regards to the windlass fitting - I'm going to have to re-glass the plate where it was fitted as the core at that point has rotted away.

Anyone got a picture of a Quick (or any) windlass in-situ they have handy as I'd like to gauge how far back on the plate I can go and still get a decent drop of chain into the locker.

[Salty]

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With regards to the windlass fitting - I'm going to have to re-glass the plate where it was fitted as the core at that point has rotted away.

Anyone got a picture of a Quick (or any) windlass in-situ they have handy as I'd like to gauge how far back on the plate I can go and still get a decent drop of chain into the locker.

Herewith a photo of my Lofrans Cayman windlass in place on my B36(2002).
In regard to the way the chain drops into the locker, well it could be better, but that would need a deeper locker, so periodically I need to stop heaving the chain in and just topple the pile over. With just a little more than a total of forty metres of 8mm chain onboard and without interference from me, the chain will pile up all the way to the underside of the ledge that the windlass is fitted to.

I have reinforced the ledge that the windlass stands on with a sheet of stainless steel that has been glassed and through bolted through the original ledge, but that modification is not shown in this photo, and I’ve also modified the wiring arrangement, but that’s another story.

[Sitesurfer]

Very interesting thanks, that underpins my assumption that the fitment of the original windlass was poorly placed.
I will attack the situation with epoxy and a saw.

[Salty]

Very interesting thanks, that underpins my assumption that the fitment of the original windlass was poorly placed.
I will attack the situation with epoxy and a saw.

If that’s what you absolutely have to do, then that is your decision, but I wouldn’t go tearing things apart without very considerable consideration on whether my intention was actually going to make any significant improvement, and whether that improvement was within my capability. Getting the anchor chain to stow properly without my periodic intervention to topple the heap of chain over is no big deal, I might have to do it perhaps two or three times when retrieving my 40 metres of chain, and it might add an extra five minutes to the whole process. But in order to prevent your chain from piling up you will either need some automated system to spread the chain around within the locker, or a very much deeper locker. The first option is the one I’d look at, because to deepen the chain locker would effectively mean placing your windlass on deck where it is more exposed to the elements and to corrosion and damage. Whilst there have been reported incidents of corrosion eating away the base of the Lofrans windlass, that could all have been prevented with periodic maintenance. Apart from that the Lofrans Cayman windlass is a fine and very sturdily built piece of very reliable machinery that I have no desire to change. As for its position within the chain locker, well there isn’t much choice because of size and space limitations. In my opinion it’s location where it is, is as good as it can be within the confines of the available space.
Changing the arrangement within the chain locker, you would need to ensure that your modification was at least as strongly built as that which the  original construction provided, because when you come to sell your boat, your purchasers surveyor will very likely pick up the fact that an alteration has been made and will ask questions about it. Unsatisfactory answers will serve only to reduce your buyers price offer.

[Sitesurfer]

When I say poorly placed, I mean that the position on the factory shelf was sub-optimal.
Cutting away the shelf to provide a hole was absolutely fine, but failing to seal the exposed plywood has created rot which needs ripping out and replacing.

From what I can see, the previous windlass was mounted too far forward, it was on another plywood base mounted to the shelf and sitting forward of the shelf.

My aim is to repair the shelf, then redrill a hole for the chain drop in an appropriate place - epoxying the holes for both chain drop and windlass fitments up first before redrilling.

Photos show what happened to the last windlass, and the holes drilled.

[Spirit of Mary]

My boat, a BAV 38 2003 has a factory fitted Lofrans Cayman windlass. 3 years ago the windlass broke off the base because of heavy corrosion of the windlass foot. The studs broke out of the foot. In trying to remove the studs it prooved that the 2 studs positioned towards the mddle of the boat were just on the wall between the anchor locker and the front cabin and could not be reached from below. So a very poor design.

I repaired the foot of the windlass by taking around 10mm of material off and srewed a new stainless steel base to the windlass using appox 12 x M6 screws and packed it fully in epoxy. The assembly was placed about 40 mm forward so all studs could now be reached from the anchour locker. Last year I run aground and I needed my anchour to get free. During these effords the load on the windlass and base was extreme. It was clearly visible that the mounting plate was not stiff enough. It didn't break but it deformed extreme. The windlass and repaired base performed well.

[Salty]

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From what I can see, the previous windlass was mounted too far forward, it was on another plywood base mounted to the shelf and sitting forward of the shelf.

My aim is to repair the shelf, then redrill a hole for the chain drop in an appropriate place - epoxying the holes for both chain drop and windlass fitments up first before redrilling.

Photos show what happened to the last windlass, and the holes drilled.

Your last photo is pretty much the same as my set up, except my windlass was not mounted on an additional piece of plywood.

The problem with the set up as shown in both yours and my photos of the windlass mounting is that the shelf on which the windlass is mounted consists of two parts. The forward part is simply an extension added on to the aft part. The aft part consists of a horizontal which extends aft from the chain locker lower aft bulkhead. Take down the lining on the forward bulkhead on the fore cabin, and you will see more easily what I’m trying to describe.

The forward part of the shelf on which the windlass was bolted to, is as I said merely an extension to the aft part, and on my boat I managed to separate the forward part of the shelf from the aft part. I repaired it initially by grinding out in way of where it had cracked, and then laid up several layers of grp before bonding a 4mm stainless steel plate across the entire area of the shelf, both the aft part and the extension leading forward. This was then stainless steel bolted through both the forward and aft parts. I think my repair is about as rock solid now as it could possibly be. Finally the windlass was bolted down with four more stainless bolts through the entire area.

The aft bulkhead of the upper part of the chain locker (above the shelf) is stepped further aft than the bulkhead below the shelf. This upper aft bulkhead limits where the windlass can be placed, as much as anything because the aft part of the windlass has a cover which must have some rearward clearance to allow the cover to be removed for maintenance (Lofrans Cayman windlass) (and I wouldn’t swap it even for a brand new Lewmar or Quick windlass).

The only part of the shelf which didn’t benefit from the stainless steel plate over it was the area in way of the forward water tank filler cover.

I understand your concern regarding the rotting plywood, and that will need to be replaced one way or another.

I would also check out the directional signal wiring while you are doing the job because on my boat that wiring consisted of plain copper wires which had corrosion on the wires throughout the entire length right back to the electric distribution board next to the chart table. I changed my wiring for tinned copper wires, and later added a £10 radio control unit which completely bypasses those signal wires with a radio receiver located directly on to, or below the solenoid control box also located next to the chart table.

Now I just carry an electronic transmitter in my pocket when I go forward to operate the windlass. I can also operate it from the cockpit, but I do prefer to be forward where I can see exactly how the chain is leading.