Keel Problems - 36

[LouisB]

Is anyone aware of a 'common' issue with Bavaria keels? We have a shared 2005 Bavaria 36 (deep keel) which suffered a grounding earlier in the year. On lift out the boat yard have reported lateral movement of the keel. The insurance company surveyor is of the view that this isn't as a result of the grounding but is due to some delamination in the area where the keel is attached to the hull due to inadequate design or manufacture. He is of the view that this is a 'typical problem with Bavarias'. There seems to be no firm information to support this view and we intend to instruct our own surveyor.

Any information would be gratefully received.

[Salty]

Whilst any problem with the keel attachment to the hull is a serious matter not to be taken lightly, I have to say that I would be inclined to ask your insurance company surveyor to provide specific information to back up his assertion that this is a "typical problem with Bavarias." Also a question to ask your insurer is what basis has their surveyor used in order to make such comment.
I am no expert in regard to Bavaria boats, but there is an awful lot of rumourmongering on various subjects which if repeated often enough can result in those gullible enough to believe those rumours being sucked into believing them to be truth rather than rumour. One of my neighbours who owns a Beneteaux used to rib me with tales of Bavaria keels falling off, but to my knowledge I have heard of only one definite and one possible loss of a keel from a Bavaria boat. The one that lost its keel was known to have run aground quite forcibly.
My neighbour has had less to say about keels coming off since the Cheeki Rafiki incident where that boat was, if I remember correctly, built by Jeanneau which I understand is part of the Beneteau/Jeanneau group, and had suffered several groundings during its lifetime.
Bavaria themselves may be reluctant to provide definitive information, but they might be prepared to dispute any rumour that tarnishes their reputation.
For what it's worth, my boat is a 2002 Bavaria 36, and neither I or the yards that have lifted my boat out over the last seven years have ever commented about the security of its keel, and I have seen nothing that might give me any cause for concern.
The best source of information about Bavaria boats is surely the Bavaria Forums with this forum being the best of the lot. I've read most if not all of the various threads within this forum, and while there have been occasional queries regarding keels, they don't exactly leap out as being a problem area, far less something that could be described as a "Typical problem with Bavarias."
Please keep us posted in regard to how you get on with your insurer, and out of interest I'm sure that most of us would like to know who your insurer is, as much as anything on who to avoid insuring with in the future, and the surveyor too unless they both come up with good reasons for such statement.
I suppose arguably too, there is a question to ask your insurer why they accepted your premium without warning you of a problem that they think is "Typical of a Bavaria." Indeed if it is a Typical Problem, why is it not specifically excluded within their terms and conditions.

[Boatname]

If there was a continual problem with a component on ANY marque of boat that was costing insurers serious money due to continuous failures they would insist on ongoing, perhaps annual checks.

Let’s not even think about the potential for loss of life!

I would challenge the surveyor to back up his statement and it might even be worth talking to local yards for their experiences.

Where I keep my boat the guy that does SERIOUS repairs to boats (t-boned, fronts missing, boats broken free of their moorings) actually recommended a Bavaria to a member of his family.

[Spirit of Mary]

The Bavaria Match series had a keel problem, not the Cruiser series. As new the keel had lateral movement. Also a Bav Match lost its keel in Kroatia, however serious grounding was probably the reason the keel fell off. The recommendation of Bavaria was to beef up the section between the ribs where the keel bolts are located. A Dutch Seasailing school had a few Matches which were upgraded by Bavaria and are fine now.
For the cruiser series, I don't know if the stiffening section(ribs) (matrix) is glued in the hull as with some Beneteaus. If this is the case the glue fixation should be very well inspected by a professional when there was a serious grounding. The incident with the Cheeki Rafiki was caused by a not well inspection of the matrix connection to the hull. Advise: Ask Bavaria about the design of the particular boat.
It is definitely not a design problem of Bavaria. When there was no grounding the keel-hull connection is sufficiently stiff, also after long time use of the boat and proven by thousands of Bavaria boats

[Craig]

There was also a Bavaria Ocean model from the early 1990s that lost its keel about 10 years ago that I know of. 
Given the numbers of Bavarias, and also the number skippered by rank beginners, this is an incredibly low failure rate. It is important to note that the keels usually take some time before they actually fall off.
The Cheeki Rafiti loss highlighted the need to have any grounding properly assessed.
As far as I can see, the keel losses have always been as a result of a modification or not identifying damage after a grounding.
I would feel safer with any mass produced, production line boat than the so-called bespoke boats produced in small quantities, often at enormous cost , in factories without proper climate controls or quality monitoring.
It is stupidity or over-confidence that causes most losses. Clipper Round the World Race has now lost 2 boats ( last one a month ago)  and had 2 deaths in recent years and Volvo have had Vesta Wind up on a reef in the Indian Ocean a few years ago.
The surveyor's comments in this case do not seem logical.

Craig
"Shirley Valentine"
Gold Coast
Australia

 

[Kibo]

Agree with all comments so won't repeat.

All I can add is that I have owned 3 Bavarias all from new. 2005 Cruiser 42, 2010 Cruiser 35 and now a 2014 Vision 46. Never had any problems and the first two boats were in a BVI charter fleet for all their lives. The 35 was recently in the marina during Irma and is being repaired by the insurance company (this is after I sold her). I am good friends with the Caribbean Bavaria Dealer and he has probably sold on or pit in charter in his own company at least 10 boats average per year since 1999 and has a charter fleet of around 25 Bavaria monohulls all through that period. No keel issues reported to my knowledge outside of hard groundings and even then not really atypical of any boat and all repairable.

I think the surveyor is setting it up for the insurance company to decline responsibility or payment by marking this down as "wear and tear" without much to back it up. I would get a second opinion as you indicate and fight this all the way.

Good luck

[Imagine]

That is nonsense I have a 36 and have done over 80 thousand miles,including around the world and have never had a problem.I have never grounded

[LouisB]

Thank you for all your contributions - some really useful information that largely mirrors our own thoughts. We have appointed our own surveyor and we are continuing to challenge our insurance company. Thanks again and a Happy New year to all.

[LouisB]

As a postscript to this topic, we reached an agreement with our insurers that resulted in the repairs being funded by them with 'improvement/strengthening' at our cost. This resulted in the total boatyard costs being split equally between the insurers and us, but only after over 3 months of negotiations before the rectification work commenced.

[Kibo]

Happy that worked out for you Louis B.

Pity you had to fight hard for what was a seemingly obvious outcome. Sail safe

[Salty]

Happy that worked out for you Louis B.

Pity you had to fight hard for what was a seemingly obvious outcome. Sail safe

I agree with Kibo.

However, I think there is more to this thread that needs to be aired.

Your insurer agreed to pay for repairs, but not for improvements which arguably is fair enough, but for them to have agreed to pay, must mean that they did not support their surveyors assertion of there being a problem with the keel attachment on Bavaria boats. That initial assertion undoubtedly would have caused you some degree of stress, and almost certainly would have delayed the commencement of repair work, thereby depriving you of the use of your boat as well as the loss of mooring fees already paid for up front.

If they have not supported their surveyor, as would appear to be the case, then I wonder how many other questionable decisions have been made in the past to other boat owners based on unfounded assertions by this surveyor?

Your boat is a 36 cruiser, two years newer than my B36, so if you had a faulty keel attachment then it’s likely my keel is no better attached. Also your boat is UK based same as mine, so it’s odds on your insurer is also UK based, same as mine.

Lastly and importantly, who was your insurer so we can give them the thumbs down on the basis that they didn’t tell you up front of any problem with the keel attachment when you signed up for insurance, and who was their surveyor who didn’t back up his statement with evidence to support his claim, because I for one would not want to employ him on my boat 👎👎

[Joneses]

If I was Louis I might have some concerns about dobbing in my insurance company ( not that I disagree with the reasoning ), the very nature of boat ( if not all ) insurance is biased in favour of the big company over the individual. Fighting insurance companies that you have "offended" in order to be recompensed sounds very distressing to me.

[Salty]

Unfortunately, keeping quiet about bad service plays into the hands of the firms that provide it, but honesty should only offend those who short change their customers out of the service they have paid for.

[sailersal]

I have seen a 36ft cruiser with a loose keel after a heavy grounding down here in Australia. Upon removal there was overload damage to the holes.

His Insurance funded the repair which included measuring the attachment plates and copying details off my Match 35. The Cruiser did not have the heavy stainless plates that have bent flanges  which fit tightly between the beams of the base grid. On refitting the keel, after filling and re-drilling the hull holes, and glass reinforcement, the plates were made up for each keel both and drilled so when the keel was reinstalled the nuts bear down on the plates and are the side bearing of the bolts is reinforced by the plate. To cause a problem on the Match would require either the nuts to be loose, or the keel bolts to be bent, most unlikely as the inside head of the bolt is bearing on the stainless plate braced to the frame, and the keel is hard against the hull.

No system is bullet proof, but I have every confidence in the Match 35 securing being very robust. My boat is a 2005 build with the 2.2m keel.

Cheers