Author Topic: Heavy weather tactics?  (Read 7935 times)

sy_Anniina

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Heavy weather tactics?
« on: September 21 2018, 08:01 »
Motivated by the progress and weather experienced bu the Golden Globe Racers, I would like to initiate a poll around heavy weather tactics in our fin-keeled Bavarias.

What would be your tactics and in which conditions:
  • Heaving to
  • Stopping / heaving to with sea anchor deployed from the bow
  • Running & towing warps
  • Running & towing a droque
  • Stopping / running & towing a series drogue
  • Lying ahull

My personal worst weather experience is 30kts wind with average 3m wave height (5m highest individual wave) measured by a nearby meteo buoy. We ended up running before the wind with only main rolled down to corresponding traditional 3rd reef. Our boat (B40, 2001) took that well, the only hindsight was crew fatigue from constant steering - luckily it was only a 50NM stretch until shelter provided by a big island.

Tommi
s/y Anniina

dawntreader

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Re: Heavy weather tactics?
« Reply #1 on: September 24 2018, 08:30 »
Tommi,
Tactics for 'Heavy Weather' is really dependent on the skipper, the number of crew and their capability. I would suggest many of the experienced sailors on this forum would not consider your 30 Knt experience as being particularly 'heavy weather' and would probably not use any of the measures listed until the wind was much stronger or the crew needed to have respite from the conditions.

nightowle

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Re: Heavy weather tactics?
« Reply #2 on: September 24 2018, 19:42 »
Good question - and a good thread.  I'm still trying to work out the best sail plan for when the wind pipes up while aboard our '99 B35E. We've only had her less than 18 months. 

All the tactics and then some are mentioned in a recent book I read called "Sailing a Serious Ocean" by John Kretchsmer. He tells his tales of open ocean deliveries over many years.  With weather forecast forwarning he advocates moving around the weather front if possible. Here's a link plus some other suggestions, such as the Pardey's well-respected book "Storm Tactics Handbook":

https://www.amazon.com/Sailing-Serious-Ocean-Sailboats-Stories/dp/007170440X

I'd like to hear others opinions on tactics for near shore high wind conditions in Bavarias.  Keep in mind, fractional rigged setups perform differently than masthead sloops when the need arises to lessen sail.
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Seattle, WA USA

Yngmar

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Re: Heavy weather tactics?
« Reply #3 on: September 24 2018, 22:21 »
Good question indeed!

Heaving to we've so far only done in moderate conditions in order to do some exterior plumbing (blocked toilet). That worked very well, although as a storm tactic I'm not so sure.

Down the Atlantic coast of Spain and Portugal last year, we often sailed in 3-4m waves, but those were long interval Atlantic rollers, they're fairly pleasant and never caused us concern, except when we once got a fountain up the sink in the heads as one slammed into the side of the boat just right. We learnt to close the sink seacocks that day ;)

This year we got caught out in a gale (top gust 47 knots, 40+ sustained, ~3m seas) on the way to Almerimar (a blog article I've yet to write). We ended up motoring upwind to get to Almerimar, as the downwind port was too shallow and open to the swell, so unsafe to enter in these conditions. Unlike the Atlantic, the Med (due to higher salinity) kicks up incredibly quickly and with a very short and steep sea that is much more dangerous. The rough seas made progress very slow (~3 knots at throttle wide open - and the 40 Ocean doesn't suffer from an undersized engine) and I had to hand steer. Each wave needed to be negotiated individually or else the boat would fall down the trough with a frightening bang that shook the rig (happened a few times when my sunglasses were too encrusted with salt to see). I ate a lot of saltwater coming over the sprayhood. Big waves had to be taken at an angle of around 20°, not head on. The boat did well, but in hindsight it would've probably been smarter to turn around and run off, although that would've seen us in the crappy weather for much, much longer, it would likely have been a much better ride. The companionway sliding hatch needs an exterior locking bolt, something I shall add this winter - after some saltwater lubricated the tracks, it kept sliding open. The bow dipped in and scooped waves that would run across the deck and we had to block the rope gates under the windscreen with towels to prevent water coming in the cockpit that way. Not dangerous, but annoying. Not sure how to stop that. The Dorade vent on the foredeck also got overwhelmed - it can be closed from the inside, but nobody remembered to :P

It's always the seas that cause the problems, never the wind itself (unless perhaps it gets much higher, say over 60 knots). We had some fairly squally weather since Sardinia in the last month, and a few of these squalls had more than 35 knots wind, but they didn't last long enough to kick up big seas, so we just reefed a bit when we saw one coming and barreled along at 8 knots boat speed under autopilot while hiding under the sprayhood from the driving rain. The boat really enjoys this, especially on a beam reach (which unfortunately means the rain comes in sideways).

Another time, in not quite as bad weather as the Almerimar bit, we ran downwind under reefed Genoa and it was hugely more comfortable and far less strain on the boat. I think I'd vastly prefer that, as you also get the benefit of reduced apparent wind. Waves on the transom were no problem, it's plenty tall and we never got the vents under water, although I would like to fit some close-able vent covers there instead of the louvered ones the boat came with. If the boat started surfing (not likely in the Med, but possible in longer Atlantic swell), I'd try trailing mooring lines as suggested in Heavy Weather Sailing, or if I were doing this a lot, get a series drogue. The book (which I'd recommend reading) does not speak too highly of conventional drogues, as they are ineffective if the single cone gets in the fast flow of a wave - it will do nothing to slow the boat down then, and constantly adjusting the line length is impractical. Retrieval of drogues can be a big problem though, and at a time where the crew will likely already be exhausted.

Sea anchors are much larger, they effectively stop the boat relative to the water, holding the bow into the waves, which creates enormous loads on the attachment points. I don't think they would stand up to it as factory fitted, especially the non-Ocean ones.

Lying ahull is a terrible idea in any boat and likely to get you rolled and lose the rig in a storm. The book goes into some detail about that and leaves no doubt about this.

A tactic you didn't mention, but is widely used (in the book, and we've done it as above), is motoring. This worked well for us at around 20-30° into the waves.

We do have a storm staysail on a removable stay that the original owner had paid a fortune for to have fitted. I've not yet figured out how to use the thing in practice, as in conditions where I'd want to use it, I would not go on the foredeck willingly to set it up. Perhaps leave it rigged for ocean passages where the interference with tacking would be less of an issue.

Another key consideration, especially when well offshore is exhaustion. Any approach where you do not have to hand steer is preferable for short-handed crews. Manual helming requires concentration and in big seas serious physical effort. If you lose attention for one second, you can roll the boat. So anything that lets you use the autopilot safely is far preferably. For our boat that is again running downwind. This depends on your autopilot type - modern ones all have gyroscopes and should fare well with this. Older ones with just a fluxgate compass would react too slowly. We upgraded our older Type 300 with an optional gyro, which definitely helped it steer straight in rough seas.
(formerly) Sailing Songbird  ⛵️ Bavaria 40 Ocean (2001)

geoff

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Re: Heavy weather tactics?
« Reply #4 on: September 25 2018, 09:02 »
Yngmar, with the water coming along the decks and through the rope entry into the cockpit. On my ocean I cut up a section of a small white fender the size of the entry plus the plastic block above and made holes for each rope to pass through , the ropes are then threaded through and the fender bit screwed onto the plastic block. NO MORE WET COCKPIT. I also have a removable storm jib which I do actually use , generally only for fun . Upwind with 2 reefs and over 25kt apparent it goes very well indeed, I have never HAD to set it up under way and don't much fancy it but as an upwind strategy in stronger winds it is cut flat as a board and  smaller than I could ever roll my 135% genoa . Geoff

nightowle

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Re: Heavy weather tactics?
« Reply #5 on: September 26 2018, 07:53 »
Yngmar, with the water coming along the decks and through the rope entry into the cockpit. On my ocean I cut up a section of a small white fender the size of the entry plus the plastic block above and made holes for each rope to pass through , the ropes are then threaded through and the fender bit screwed onto the plastic block. NO MORE WET COCKPIT. I also have a removable storm jib which I do actually use , generally only for fun . Upwind with 2 reefs and over 25kt apparent it goes very well indeed, I have never HAD to set it up under way and don't much fancy it but as an upwind strategy in stronger winds it is cut flat as a board and  smaller than I could ever roll my 135% genoa . Geoff

Geoff,
Is this the type of storm jib that is deployed with the luff edge that wraps around a furled genoa, or are you using another forestay?
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geoff

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Re: Heavy weather tactics?
« Reply #6 on: September 26 2018, 08:36 »
Its on a separate forestay  normally stowed against the mast. It is attached to a tang bolted through the rear bulkhead of the anchor locker. Geoff

Kibo

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Re: Heavy weather tactics?
« Reply #7 on: September 26 2018, 11:47 »
All good comments.

"heavy weather" in my opinion is any level of weather where you or your crew (in most cases this means my wife) feel uncomfortable and feel the need to take action to make the boat more comfortable and hopefully more safe.

I like the book from Larry and Lynn Pardey called "Storm Tactics; modern methods of heaving to in heavy weather" . It echoes a lot of the comments already made.

Personally when we live aboard our simple approach is "if it's blowing over 25knts out there the beer is still cold on this island" My able First Mate is n charge of the weather forecasts and the only time we made an error was when I overrode her recommendation to stay put and we ventured out from Dominica en route to Martinique with me saying "It should only be 25 gusts darling". Wrong !

After our third roundup/near knockdown with double reefed fore and mainsails coming out of the lee of Dominica in gusting 35-40knts and waves breaking over the bow and cabin top we decided to turn back to our relatively sheltered mooring off Rousseau.  Turning back was an adventure in and of itself since we have to turn through the wind and across the waves which I accomplished very carefully in possible the slowest tack I have ever done.

When we got back to the same mooring ball about 2 hours later SeaCat, the "boat boy" who owned the mooring who we know quite well, said to us "Whadya doin' goin' out dere today, Mon? Ax me next time an' I'll tel ya when it's OK!!" . Needless to say we tipped him well for his assistance in picking up the mooring that day.

And guess what? Dominican beer is just as cold as Martinique beer !!

As you can imagine I received quite a lot of free feedback after that one !

Sail safe everyone.
Ian
SV Kibo, 2014 Bavaria Vision 46

nightowle

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Re: Heavy weather tactics?
« Reply #8 on: September 28 2018, 04:36 »
Thanks, Geoff.....makes sense.
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grossifs

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Re: Heavy weather tactics?
« Reply #9 on: September 28 2018, 12:39 »
Hi, very interesting..
I'll tell you my recent experiences this summer.

For 3 times we had to deal with squalls
.
The very first one has been in the first day of our holidays, having left Taranto and heading to S.Maria di Leuca in the Ionia Gulf of Taranto.
At the height of Gallipoli sudden the wonderful summer sunday turned in a squall for 4 hours with +48 knots and 5 meter waves raised in a blinkeye.
I decided (beside having the whole crew with PSI and lifelines immediately) to motor and turn the stern to waves... changing my route and having as many space  I would like to have...speed of the boat went well over 11 knots...after 2 hours sea and wind calmed down and we returned to the old route...Crew was ok... Boat (Bav 40 farr 2012) fantastic... Lesson learned: everybody tied to the boat, stern waves are difficult to manage (I helmed personally) but are very pleased with modern boat design and dress properly is mandatory.. I weared on Tshirt and swimming case and at the end i was schacking 4 cold..

2. Parga Bay greece. 8 in the morning.
As I came up with the coffee I noticed that a new squall was coming...I alerted the crew and in 2 (two..) minutes we were out of the bay meanwhile the other boats on anchor where starting to bowl each other...this time 41 knots but the sea was right in  the bow...3 m waves again coming up in a blinkeye....again everybody tied and this time I dressed too.... rolled main (corresponding to a 3rd reff) and hitting the waves at 20-30° with a little motor on (video of this squall is on my YT channel: search for saverio grossi... lesson learned.. when on anchor never be unalerted on the weather... and that the tender might be left connected to the boat.. I felt it has been slowly some how the boat...


3. on the very way back after crossing the Otranto Channel ( a well known 45 mile offshore that might be very tricky) we arrived near Santa Maria di Leuca..again we saw it coming eastward...again everybody prepared and tuned...again 3-4 meters wave this time at our beam reach...tought...very tought..rolling was very hard to manage so I tourned the route to broad reach and then everything started to get better.. we had sailed all the way through the channel with main and fore 100% so we reduced main immediately before the start of the roller coaster ( ;D) and closed the fore... speed of the boat around 7 to 8 knots..after 1.5 h even this calmed down and we could safely reach the marina... Lesson learned: now I know how to look the clouds to be adviced of the forecoming..I hope this may help


PS before those squall I had experienced with my crew a maximum of 28 knots during regattas (very important for my to get really in touch with your boat in almost every condition) and 42 NW during a training session....


Craig

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Re: Heavy weather tactics?
« Reply #10 on: October 02 2018, 00:17 »
Best response for heavy weather is to pull down all your sails and turn the motor on and motor to the nearest safe anchorage. The report on the 1979 Fastnet race and the report on the 1998 Sydney to Hobart Race did not look at this simple method of survival because all the boats that pulled out of the races by turning their motors on survived. I am always horrified to see discussion about storm conditions mention all the options listed above but forget to mention the simplest and safest solution. 

Our 2010 Model Bavaria 38 cruiser held up well in 75kn gusts at anchor in Pula, Croatia for three days at anchor. ( No wave action). 45knots sailing ( until we got the sails down) for about 20 minutes and 60 knots motoring into a marina plus numerous storms gusting over 60 knots for short periods of time.

The steadying effect of leaving sails up in rough conditions is mainly overcome by the lack of directional ability. Having a sail up in extreme conditions or towing drogues limits where you can head.

Worst conditions I have experienced were 35 to 48kn winds and 6 metre breaking seas in Bass Strait for 18 hours under bare poles and engine in idle forward. We could only head downwind at 8 knots under these conditions. Not a Bavaria but I'm sure my boat would have coped just as well under these conditions.

Craig
"Shirley Valentine"
Gold Coast
Australia

sy_Anniina

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Re: Heavy weather tactics?
« Reply #11 on: October 02 2018, 07:43 »
Thanks for all your valuable experiences!

In the relatively shallow Baltic sea we often get quite steep waves. My aim is to mentally prepare both to steep Baltic seas, as well as North Sea / Atlantic offshore conditions. I would agree that in coastal conditions staying in / moving to shelter is the approach to follow.