Author Topic: Fuel filler assembly  (Read 6641 times)

Fenders

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Fuel filler assembly
« on: August 05 2017, 08:26 »
Since the purchase of my 2004 Bavaria 32 I have found water in the diesel. The first occasion by chance I noticed contamination in the heater filter. I replaced this only to find more contamination.
So, through the fuel outlet from the tank to the heater I used a suction pump and removed some 2  litres of fuel. I allowed this to settle in a bottle and the water settled to the bottom showing maybe 1/4 litre water and muck.
I checked the engine pre filter and that was all good.
To cut a long story short I have just found some more contamination. This time I had to remove approx 20 litres of fuel from the bottom of the tank before there were no visible signs of water.
After that removal I replaced heater filter and ran the heater for an hr with no problems. However, this time the pre filter has water in it so that will be cleaned and new filter fitted next week.
I should point out that I use Marine 16.

Mystified as to how water reaches the tank I checked the fuel filler deck mounting. This is flush mounted and this area is often very wet from water run off, either rain or seawater. Seems an odd place to put a fuel filler, but this seems standard on mist yachts I have looked at.
Anyway, on removal of the assembly and closer inspection it was observed that some of the thread is worn away probably by the metal nozzle when refuelling and this means that the cap thread cannot make a fully water tight seal. This was confirmed when the assembly was placed in a bowl of shallow water cap side down. Water was observed entering the plastic tube via the cap.

So, I am looking for a replacement. The assembly is a Perko 0541. I have found some in USA but only one in U.K.
Can anyone suggest who stocks this.?

tiger79

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Re: Fuel filler assembly
« Reply #1 on: August 05 2017, 10:43 »
Shouldn't there be an O-ring seal on the cap?  You can't rely on a screw thread to seal.  I check the O-rings on my deck fillers regularly, and give them a smear of silicone grease.

Edit: I see that the Perko catalogue mentions O-rings in spare parts, so there should be an O-ring to seal it.
http://www.perko.com/catalog/fills_and_vents/865/straight_neck_vented_fill_for_1-1_2_hose_marinium/

Fenders

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Re: Fuel filler assembly
« Reply #2 on: August 05 2017, 13:42 »
There is an O ring with grease but the water still enters the tank. I think it may be getting through the vent in the cap.

tiger79

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Re: Fuel filler assembly
« Reply #3 on: August 05 2017, 14:06 »
It's vented??  Crazy, can't see it was an original fit item.  I'd replace it with a sealed filler.  Incidentally, the fitting instructions say it shouldn't be located anywhere very wet!

http://www.perko.com/images/catalog/pdf/Fig.%200540%20to%200591%20Inst.pdf

Fenders

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Re: Fuel filler assembly
« Reply #4 on: August 05 2017, 18:37 »
Regarding the location of the filler, I don't get the choice as it's a factory fit.
The filler is definitely vented with 2 pipes connected. I have looked at other Bavaria's of the same vintage and they all have the same cap.

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Re: Fuel filler assembly
« Reply #5 on: August 05 2017, 19:24 »
The cap itself is not vented - the small diameter pipe should be connected to a vent hose that leads to a vent port located somewhere on the side of the hull (transom in my case). Don't remember exactly how it  is lead inside the boat but it should be in such a way that water cannot go from the vent port toward the filling port.
S/Y Lyra
B36 / 2004

tiger79

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Re: Fuel filler assembly
« Reply #6 on: August 05 2017, 23:48 »
The cap itself is not vented

According to the Perko information, it is.

Impavidus

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Re: Fuel filler assembly
« Reply #7 on: August 07 2017, 14:51 »
Fenders.

This is a common problem on the post 2003 models. Previously the filler was on the rear transom, god only knows why they changed this! However, moving on....

The cap is sealed by an O ring around the cap which seats on a flat inside the filler. The flat surface can get nicks or damaged during filling by the nozzle of the pump. The O ring can become perished, stretched, damaged or nicked. Unless both the O ring and the surface it seals to are in good condition, standing water from the deck can enter the tank. The second smaller outlet is the fuel breather as was mentioned previously this should be connected to a stainless steel breather fitting via a hose which normally has a fine mesh over it. It is this fitting that must be fitted somewhere dry or not wet... There can be problems with this fitting too. The mesh can become clogged as it does rust slightly. A fine stainless steel brush rubbed slowly and gently over the fitting normally sorts this out. The hose to the fitting should have a swan neck making it higher than the filler cap so that the tube remains empty of either saltwater or diesel. Commonly I have seen that  is not always the case. When you run your engine and use diesel the level drops and this is then replaced by air via the breather. Therefore the tube is slowly sucking in air when the engine runs. If the breather is under water or in a location that gets very wet continuously it can draw in moisture or water.

Hope this helps.

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tiger79

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Re: Fuel filler assembly
« Reply #8 on: August 07 2017, 15:34 »
Perko say that the main fitting should not be located where there's water, otherwise water can be drawn in during venting.

To help avoid this, Perko sell an accessory mounting ring which is fitted between the deck and the filler, to raise the filler off the deck, in order to try to minimise water ingress.  See http://www.perko.com/catalog/fills_and_vents/212/accessory_mounting_ring/

However, I can't see this being a decent solution.  I'd still recommend replacing it.

Impavidus

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Re: Fuel filler assembly
« Reply #9 on: August 07 2017, 16:23 »
Tiger. That mounting ring is for the underside of the deck hence "up" on one side. The pdf installation guide refers to the breather vent being fitted where it is not substantially submerged. 
Water can only go in through the filler if there is a path for it to travel. IE the cap is not sealing correctly. It will not suck water in if the breather is clear. I agree it is not best practice submerge the cap and fitting or mount it on the deck, but the fitting is fit for purpose if fitted and maintained properly and its not damaged. The vent tube and vent fitting must be as I described clear, and fitted with a swan neck. You must not under any circumstances seal the tank with a non breathing fitting    This could damage the fuel pump, collapse or split the fuel tank or stop the engine running.

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tiger79

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Re: Fuel filler assembly
« Reply #10 on: August 07 2017, 17:44 »
Tiger. That mounting ring is for the underside of the deck hence "up" on one side. The pdf installation guide refers to the breather vent being fitted where it is not substantially submerged. 
Water can only go in through the filler if there is a path for it to travel. IE the cap is not sealing correctly. It will not suck water in if the breather is clear. I agree it is not best practice submerge the cap and fitting or mount it on the deck, but the fitting is fit for purpose if fitted and maintained properly and its not damaged. The vent tube and vent fitting must be as I described clear, and fitted with a swan neck. You must not under any circumstances seal the tank with a non breathing fitting    This could damage the fuel pump, collapse or split the fuel tank or stop the engine running.

Ant.

No, the mounting ring is for above deck, to raise the fitting.  If you care to read the description, you'll realise that.

You say "It will not suck water in if the breather is clear", yet Perko say it will, and offer the accessory mounting ring to try to prevent this happening.

It would be very easy to fit a sealed filler and arrange an alternative vent.

Impavidus

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Re: Fuel filler assembly
« Reply #11 on: August 07 2017, 20:38 »
Tiger. I think we are getting at crossed purposes here and my syntax is not really clear. Sometimes my brain works quicker than my fingers type. :-) You are correct the adaptor fits under the "deck fitting". On top of the deck below the plastic deck fitting.
It can be split to retro fit under the deck fitting on top of the deck and is sealed down and clamped using the through deck fixings, without removing the breather hose or the filler pipe. I hope that clears any misunderstanding? 

The cap lid that screws in is sealed with the O ring, the actual cap is not vented, but the lower fitting is via the second smaller vent hose connection I previously mentioned. The description from Perco is slightly misleading or ambiguous or just badly written. The extension fitting raises the filler cap above the deck by 3/8 of an inch to stop any splashed water or water on the deck entering the tank when the cap is removed for filling, not when it is closed or sealed closed.

To comply with the EPA standard and the European boat directive the cap or lid has to seal and be water resistant. However, they have again been a bit careful in the description by using the phrase "The ring will not prevent water from entering the system if the cap becomes submerged or substantially flooded". This is because the O ring set up is not a tapered fit that gets better under pressure or vacuum like a compression fitting on an air line or vacuum pipe fitting. It is a flat or nearly flat compression seal and has to be in good order to work.   

The lower part of the deck fitting (the plastic part) has a vent below the O ring, working through the vent tube and the vent fitting. It is this part that they refer to in the installation information you posted. It is not the Cap that vents it?s the lower part of the fitting, the plastic part through the second smaller hose tail.

I had a 2003 B 32 (Renovatio) the filler cap was on the transom and was never a problem because even with a bad O ring water never lays on a sloping surface. I also sailed a 2004 B32 (Tenacious B) the filler was on the deck. Rain and salt water constantly washed over the deck filler. Especially when the boat was sailed hard. Water in the diesel forced the owner to leave the boat in Brighton for a week and I helped him to pump the tanks dry of 45 ltrs of water and diesel before fitting a new O ring and sailing it back to Southsea marina in very poor conditions.

Two years ago I saw Tenacious B at Weymouth. The owner was trying to empty the tank having been towed in with water in the fuel. Knowing the boat and the previous owner, I offered some help. I undid the filler cap and showed him the perished O ring. He then told me they had come down from Gosport in rough weather around St Albans head, there had been a lot of water on the decks for sustained periods. QED

Yes you could fit another type of fitting, providing there is a clear breather tube and fitting as described in the Perco fitting instructions for the vent tube (marine fuel vent). However, the existing fitting meets all the standards, is water tight, (unless substantially submerged) and has to be un-damaged, and inspected on regular basis. (say 3 months or so). Just like everything else on you boat if you want it to be reliable. 

Finally, at last I hear you say  :P My current boat (2015 Bavaria 37) has the same setup stupidly, some may say, the deck filler cap is located on the aft starboard deck. This area is constantly awash with sea water, rain and fresh water when we wash down. The cap is frequently submerged, over washed or under an inch or so of water for some time. The breather fitting is just below the toe rail and the gauze or mesh does get rusty and needs to be cleaned and picked out with a sail needle every few months, then brushed with a fine stainless steel brush. Nevertheless,  we don't get water in our tank or in the Racor filter/separator I fitted because, I regularly check the O ring and keep the mating surfaces clean and lubricated with silicone grease (not Vaseline).

Hope this clears any misunderstanding, Fair winds and safe sailing.

Ant.   



 


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tiger79

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Re: Fuel filler assembly
« Reply #12 on: August 07 2017, 20:45 »
I'm pleased you've eventually understood where the mounting ring is intended to go.  As Perko's literature explains, that particular filler isn't suitable for locations which are exposed to water, they offer the mounting ring as a possible solution, but warn that it's not necessarily a fix.  The only seamanlike solution is to fit a sealed filler and a separate vent.

Impavidus

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Re: Fuel filler assembly
« Reply #13 on: August 07 2017, 21:35 »
Tiger.
Please read again, slowly..............

Happy to let you have the have the last word if you want it.

Ant.

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tiger79

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Re: Fuel filler assembly
« Reply #14 on: August 07 2017, 21:49 »
No need to read again...

Fenders

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Re: Fuel filler assembly
« Reply #15 on: August 08 2017, 17:45 »
Thanks to you all for your thoughts and advice.

Impavidus
That is interesting that you already know Tenacious B. My friend Pete and I bought her last April after extensive searches for the "right" boat.
We had viewed a lot of boats. Some in appalling condition, some very expensive and some appalling and expensive.

Tenacious B surveyed very well with the usual list of minor items. All have been addressed by ourselves over the year of ownership. We have enjoyed every moment of it and found the experience a very good way of learning all about your boat. We have also upgraded the instrumentation and other electrics as the wiring in the binnacle, etc were not in the best of conditions.

Regarding the survey, no mention was made of the water issue and as the pre filter, etc were clear there would be no reason to think there was a problem.
Before every trip Pete and I inspect the pre filter and until last week we haven't observed any water.
The only water we have seen previously was in the filter for the heater. This rang alarm bells and we have been investigating since.
After our last trip 10 days ago in appalling weather that was when we began to suspect there was a problem with water ingress.
Your experiences a couple of years ago on Tenacious B have confirmed our suspicions.

Having looked around at other similar boats at our marina we have seen quite a few with similar fuel filler arrangements.
We have chartered very extensively for very many years in the UK and abroad. Mostly Bavaria's from 36 -50 so we know the brand very well. Most seem to have the filler on the transom.

I find it quite disappointing that Bavaria locate the filler on the deck. It is clearly a vulnerability and the design/location needs addressing.

I shall discuss this matter with my co owner Pete.

I am sure other owners may have similar experiences.

Thanks again

Fenders

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Re: Fuel filler assembly
« Reply #16 on: August 08 2017, 19:08 »
I have a Bavaria Vision 46.

I always curse the Bavaria designers who placed the filler cap inboard under a lifting side cockpit helm seat making it difficult to fill up with out spilling that very last drop of diesel in the cockpit. I always carry a small bottle of washing up liquid and a rag in the cockpit storage for obvious reasons.....

Having read this thread I will no longer curse the Bavaria (Farr) draftsmen for putting my filler access in what is probably the driest location on the boat.......... ;D
Ian
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Impavidus

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Re: Fuel filler assembly
« Reply #17 on: August 09 2017, 17:41 »
Fenders.

Tenacious B belonged to my good friend Bill. While in his care the boat was well looked after. I helped him change the sail-drive bellows gasket and we did the lower oil seal, bearings and O rings at the same time. I believe he also fitted ambassador rope cutter too. The foresail was replaced the year before he sold the boat with a padded luff Genoa. Bill is a paper charts man and only had a small Lowrance chart plotter when he had the boat. We did many channel crossings and went across to the channel islands a few times too. I took the boat down to Falmouth in 2006 when we were trying to get to the Scilly islands. Ran out of time and good weather!! Bill met up with us on the return journey. The only other problem he had was the holding tank blocking up a couple of times. I helped him service the boat regularly so she should be in order.

Some BOA members will know Bill as "Dancing Billy and the kebab burger" but that's another story...........

Photo below is Tenacious B,  Renovatio, and a few other boats at Shepard's wharf. Bill organised a rally to celebrate my good ladies umpteenth birthday.

Best regards.

Ant.

   
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