New sails for B38/2003: genoa size / furling main with or without battens?

[pjl]

I'm thinking of replacing the original sails on my Bavaria 38 2003 and thought of the possiblity of going for a smaller headsail. Has anyone replaced the headsail to a size around 100% and if so, how have you arranged for the sheeting? My motivation is the local conditions here in the Finnish archipelago, where we are bound to tack and sail upwind a lot.

I am new to sailing and have only a few months of experience and this something thing I've been pondering during the autumn. Would it be feasible / doable / with any reasonable benefits compared to the current setup with the genoa? Or would it be sufficient to just replace the old headsail with a new one?

The original furling main has battens but the local sailmaker suggested that I could think about the main without the battens. I got the impression that without the battens the main would be a bit smaller but stay in shape better and last longer. Any pro's / con's on this one?

[Symphony]

Your rig relies on the genoa for power, so a reduction to the size you are talking about will leave you substantially underpowered. Consider having your new sail made with a padded luff as that makes reducing sail area and keeping a good shape much easier. Discuss with your sailmaker. There are conflicting opinions about battens in furling mainsails for the reasons your sailmaker suggests. Battened sails can be more difficult to furl and wear on the battens can be a problem. However they can lead to a better shape and slightly more area.

If you are worried about being overpowered with you large genos, having a better reefed shape will help, as will reefing early, particularly relatively small reduction in the main first and flattening it. Your model boat can be rather abrupt at around 18 knots of wind, so wise to take in a bit of main early as you will lose little  speed and keep the boat flatter. Dropping the mainsheet down the traveller will help as well.

[Kibo]

I have a different boat but I concur with Symphony and the "rules" I think apply fairly universally once you have decided what is the best balance of sail size to wind for your boat.

I have a padded luff on my genoa which does help with keeping a better shape on furling in to reef the genoa. Little more expensive but I think it is worth it.  I have a non battened main, I like it well enough. To keep shape I use a little more outhaul, vang/kicker and sheet to windward going upwind to keep the main flatter and boom just about centreline; obviously how much outhaul, sheet and vang/kicker depends on wind speed so this only really applies in heavier wind conditions and usually with a reef. I reef early too since we sail double handed most of the time and the first mate likes her tea not to be spilled all over the cabin at the first decent gust 

[pjl]

Thanks guys!

The sailmaker convinced me that the new genoa will let me point better and it will also perform better in higher winds.

My headsail has the padded luff and I agree that the shape doesn't get too bad when rolled in a bit. What I could use is to sheet the headsail more inwards when reefed to maintain a decent pointing ability. Now it's getting worse for every turn I roll and in my neighbourhood it means a lot of tacking between the islands. I can go 30 or even a bit less apparent with full sails but the angle drops to around 40 when the headsail is reefed to the shroud level around 25 knots winds.

But the one of the first things I have learned as a sailboat owner is that the world is full of compromises and the rig and the sailplan of my boat is one of them :-)

[sy_Anniina]

Do you adjust the genoa cars forward while rolling the genoa in? At least in my boat (B40, 2001) this makes a dramatic difference in upwind sailing.

[pjl]

Yes, always. Forward as much as needed to maintain good shape and to keep the leech tight.

[Neil]

I have noticed a trend towards self tacking jibs that are smaller (blade jibs) on cruisers. Our rigs are not designed for that however and I agree with the previous post that the genoa provides most of the driving power on Bavarias.
On reefing early that is definitely the way to go with the main, especially when light handed and in my case with an non-furler. That being said it is a good exercise to sail over powered and see when the rudder loses its stick, resulting in a broach. Fun exercise under controlled conditions with well briefed crew who are up for it. If you do attempt this watch the flogging of the main when reefing after the broach - or you may end up tearing it like I did!

[pjl]

New sails -project is progressing.

I've sent pictures and details of my sails to the local sailmakers and received their proposals. All suggest laminated radial-cut sails. Next step will be deciding the specs for the sail and get the updated proposals.

While researching this, I came across this picture from a Bavaria with self-tacking jib: http://www.lundhsails.se/wp-content/uploads/photo-gallery/bild1%20(5).jpg. Makes me wonder how this kind of setup would perform combined with a Genaker / Code 0.

[Yngmar]

The original furling main has battens but the local sailmaker suggested that I could think about the main without the battens. I got the impression that without the battens the main would be a bit smaller but stay in shape better and last longer. Any pro's / con's on this one?

I've just ordered a new furling main after much deliberating and seeking advice on battens. Basically, with a furling main you have three options:

a) No battens, with a hollow cut roach (the leech curves inward). Some loss of sail area, but no battens and consequently a significantly lower price (batten pockets require a lot of manual labour).

b) Full length vertical battens with a roach on the sail. Maximum sail area, but the long battens are a nightmare to handle and must be inserted after raising the sail and removed before the sail can be dropped, so in case of furling problems you cannot drop the sail quickly. They're inserted from the bottom and have to be bent in along the deck. The sailmaker must ensure that the battens do not end up on top of each other when furled.

c) Short vertical battens with a straight leech (or minor variations thereof). Sail area lies between a) and b), the battens are inserted from the bottom and prevent the leech from flapping. Battens do not overlap vertically, so no problem with arrangement here. With the Selden mast slot being large enough, round battens can be used, which perform better than flat/tapered ones.

d) Furling (short horizontal) battens used to be made around 2000/2001 for a brief time, but have been phased out as they plain and simple didn't work (they jam in the mast slot - often). My old main had them and I can confirm this - as did the previous owner, who also left the battens out (despite the icky curved leech this gets you).

I went for option c) (short vertical battens), as it's a good compromise and should get me a nice leech that doesn't interrupt the air flow. I've sailed on a boat with b) (full length vertical battens) and while it sailed well, I found the batten insertion/removal process fairly awful and wouldn't want to deal with this in an emergency situation - sailing primarily single-handed I'd probably end up with a destroyed sail or worse.

[Atlantica]

While researching this, I came across this picture from a Bavaria with self-tacking jib: http://www.lundhsails.se/wp-content/uploads/photo-gallery/bild1%20(5).jpg. Makes me wonder how this kind of setup would perform combined with a Genaker / Code 0.

This summer I saw two B38 (year model 2002-2004) side-by-side in East harbour of Mariehamn (MSF) with self-tacking jibs. And those were laying in their home berths. Didn't have possibility to interview owners about sailing capabilities.

I've got the same boat (B38/2003) with same setup as you have  . That's why I was interested...

[GeoffV]

The original furling main has battens but the local sailmaker suggested that I could think about the main without the battens. I got the impression that without the battens the main would be a bit smaller but stay in shape better and last longer. Any pro's / con's on this one?

I've just ordered a new furling main after much deliberating and seeking advice on battens. Basically, with a furling main you have three options:

a) No battens, with a hollow cut roach (the leech curves inward). Some loss of sail area, but no battens and consequently a significantly lower price (batten pockets require a lot of manual labour).

b) Full length vertical battens with a roach on the sail. Maximum sail area, but the long battens are a nightmare to handle and must be inserted after raising the sail and removed before the sail can be dropped, so in case of furling problems you cannot drop the sail quickly. They're inserted from the bottom and have to be bent in along the deck. The sailmaker must ensure that the battens do not end up on top of each other when furled.

c) Short vertical battens with a straight leech (or minor variations thereof). Sail area lies between a) and b), the battens are inserted from the bottom and prevent the leech from flapping. Battens do not overlap vertically, so no problem with arrangement here. With the Selden mast slot being large enough, round battens can be used, which perform better than flat/tapered ones.

d) Furling (short horizontal) battens used to be made around 2000/2001 for a brief time, but have been phased out as they plain and simple didn't work (they jam in the mast slot - often). My old main had them and I can confirm this - as did the previous owner, who also left the battens out (despite the icky curved leech this gets you).

I went for option c) (short vertical battens), as it's a good compromise and should get me a nice leech that doesn't interrupt the air flow. I've sailed on a boat with b) (full length vertical battens) and while it sailed well, I found the batten insertion/removal process fairly awful and wouldn't want to deal with this in an emergency situation - sailing primarily single-handed I'd probably end up with a destroyed sail or worse.

I have just gone through this process for my new cruiser37 and came to the same conclusion - option c) so I am glad my thinking process has at least one other person who agrees with me!

[pjl]

I closed the deal on the new sail in the autumn and went for option (a) with radial cut.

I also tightened the rig which was way too loose last summer and added a couple pulleys to my backstay which allows more tension with less force than the original.

After a few trips with the new sail I'm more than happy with the outcome.
- mainsail is very easy to furl in and out
- sail keeps it's shape beautifully compared the loose sack we had before
- boat heels less and we can sail in stronger winds by adjusting the shape of the sail instead of reefing
- boat sails a bit closer to the wind

All in all sailing with the new main is a lot more fun and I've already thinking about the next one: Gennaker or new Genoa.