Forward cabin leak - stanchions?

[KiwiBeanie]

I have a 2001 b40. We have hadheavy rain lately and have leak coming down the starboard hull liner. I figure it is probably the stanchion bases as they a bit lose. To remove  and rebed the forward most stanchion it looks like the cabin roof lining needs to be removed. Is that correct or is there a another way to get to them?

What's involved in removing the liner?

[Yngmar]

The GRP inner deck liner cannot be removed without cutting it - it's all one part the length of the boat. But you can usually access the underside of the toerail by removing the separate small ply strips on the rear and top insides of the lockers.

[Salty]

On my B36/2002 the forward stanchion base bolts were accessible through the tops of the cupboards that run along the side of the fore cabin just below the deckhead. Inside each locker there are vertical and horizontal panels held on originally with mild steel screws that all rusted and have since been replaced with stainless. Remove those panels below each stanchion and the bolt heads can be reached. Being a contortionist, or knowing one who might help is a definite bonus, as also is a set of long reach sockets or box spanners, and someone outside to hold the ends of the bolts.

[KiwiBeanie]

On  my boat there are no lockers along  the top edge of the forward cabin, just shelves that run along mid way up. The ceiling liner goes to the edges and the vinyl hull liner meets it at top. The forward most stanchions don't have lockers below them so it appears that the only way to get them is through the ceiling liner.

[Kibo]

Headliners are usually held on with strong velcro type strip fasteners and/or plastic plug and socket types (the latter are very fragile even when relatively new so you will almost certainly break one or two but don't worry)

To remove the headliner I use a plastic angle pry bar with a piece of cloth between the bar and the liner for protection of the vinyl.  Ease it carefully in the edge of the headliner and pull or lever downwards and you should see it/hear it coming down from the fasteners, once you have started it gets easier but can be nerve wracking for sure.

If you have hatches nearby where you want to access you may want to remove the hatch liners first so you can take the headliners off completely - it's easier than trying to work around the edges with some of it still attached to the inner deck.

If you do break any fasteners simply replace them with strong velcro type fasteners which you can get from Amazon or similar with strong double sided adhesive tape when you are ready to replace the headliner after your job.

As Ingmar says if the inner deck is between you and access to the stanchion bolts you may have to carefully cut access panels in that with a zip saw or similar and re-glass afterwards - or leave it for future access; it's not likely to be any detriment to structure in very small cut outs.

Good luck

[Salty]

If the headliner is a hard plastic, or is a GRP inner moulding, and only if you can accurately locate the ends of the bolts before attacking the plastic, there are various sizes of white round blanking plugs available on eBay that could be used to tidy up a neatly cut round access hole. Drilling the old bolt out from outside with a long drill might help find the location for cutting an internal hole, but only if the old bolt will stay still long enough for the drill to do its job.

[KiwiBeanie]

The GRP inner deck liner cannot be removed without cutting it - it's all one part the length of the boat. But you can usually access the underside of the toerail by removing the separate small ply strips on the rear and top insides of the lockers.

So the headliner is fitted before the internal joinery, heads etc?  If so looks like cutting holes would be the only way to go. Luckily there are only 2 stanchions that can't be accessed via lockers etc.

Thanks for all the replies.

[Noelio Abrunhosa]

hi..
I used a 20mm starret hole saw to make a accessible hole and put a 20mm white rubber gromet to cover it.
i now have 8 less leaks but still many to go. a ak47 fired in Auto from inside the cabin wouldnt have caused as many leaks as my boat had.lol
Happy sailing

[Yngmar]

So the headliner is fitted before the internal joinery, heads etc?

Yes. The internal joinery is fitted into the hull. The GRP headliner is fitted to the deck. Then the deck (with headliner) is lifted onto the hull and joined permanently (hopefully).

[Anthony]

I had the same problem with a 2001 B40 with just the shelf in forward cabin. Remove the plywood vinyl covered liners then use a small Dremel cylindrical grinding head to carefully remove enough of the GRP head liner to get a socket wrench to the bolts. Refit the deck bolts but never use silicone but sikaflex for a more permanent weather seal. Oversize washers are a must and nylock nuts are mandatory. Good luck. After replacing plywood liners you can use a little 'no more gaps' acrylic filler if required for cosmetic appearance.

[KiwiBeanie]

Thanks for all the replies. We have had a couple of major storms recently and after the last one there was several litres of water in forward bilge so it's a job I must tackle before winter sets in and where get more rain.

[Odysseus]

I am a bit late with this, however,  just check the common water ingress  point through the pushpit, follow the cable track from nav lights to the through deck hole inside the pushpit rail. Or fill the rail with silicone at the light fitting entry to the rail.
This is a very common cause of water ingress that resaults in your sort of issue.

Hope this helps
Odysseus
Bav 38

[artemis]

Hi There

I have a bavaria 34 Year 2001 bought her back in 2007 had some water ingress problems also thought it was the stanchions. I removed all the stanchions and thought man i've went this far why not remove the toe rail well I got the shock of my life when I removed them.  There was area's that had a gaps of a  1/4" over a length of a meter with no silicon you could see into the fwd cabin through the gap, I removed all the toe rails and re-silicone the whole yacht best thing I done. I see this year about 1/2 fresh water in the bilge. I've a couple of loose stanchions that people insist on pulling against when coming onto the yacht so I've assuming thats where its coming from will be sorted this June.

Rgds
Mike
Artemis   

[KiwiBeanie]

I did wondering should rebed the toerail when the stanchions were removed.

Is it a big job? Are the toerail screws self tapping or do they have nuts?

Cheers

Simon

[artemis]

Hi Simon

Mine was only screwed it shocked me when I removed them lol its a days work.

When I re-bedded them some I bolted down cause the screws would not take hold I also removed the cleats and re-bedded them. Worth doing the lot whilst your there.

Mike
Artemis

[landes_h]

So the headliner is fitted before the internal joinery, heads etc?

Yes. The internal joinery is fitted into the hull. The GRP headliner is fitted to the deck. Then the deck (with headliner) is lifted onto the hull and joined permanently (hopefully).

Interesting picture. Did you take that at a factory visit, or is it from Bavaria's website. Do you have more about the genesis of "older" Bavarias like the one on the picture.

[Yngmar]

So the headliner is fitted before the internal joinery, heads etc?

Yes. The internal joinery is fitted into the hull. The GRP headliner is fitted to the deck. Then the deck (with headliner) is lifted onto the hull and joined permanently (hopefully).

Interesting picture. Did you take that at a factory visit, or is it from Bavaria's website. Do you have more about the genesis of "older" Bavarias like the one on the picture.

They seem to be from a set of photos made available to charter companies and brokers back in the day. You can find a copy of it here: http://www.km-yachtcharter.de/charter/schiffe/bavaria-werft/

There's also one or two clips on YouTube somewhere of pretty much the same factory tour but in video format. Can't look them up right now (crappy internet) but should be easy to find.

[landes_h]

Thanks for the info. Found videos now on Bavaria site.

[robertf]

Perhaps, if the stanchion posts don't move, as a first fix to sort out the problem, you may wish to try Captain Tolleys (http://www.force4.co.uk/department/brands/cpt-tolley.html). I have successfully used Captain Tolley's  leak fixer on the last section of toe rail and aluminium casting at the stern of my B32 2002 to eliminate water sloshing around the rearmost locker in the stern cabin.  Also, my boat has a permanent list to starboard, probabaly not helped by the dinghy sitting in the cockpit locker, and for some considerable time I have had water dripping into the starboard locker immediately ahead of the chart table and drippping from the window above the chart table seat.  I removed and reseated the grab rail on the coach roof that I sealed with Dow Corning Marine Sealant (https://www.marinesuperstore.com/sealants-resins/sealants-caulking/dow-corning-sealant-white-small).  It sorted out the drip onto the chart table seat but did not stop the leak into the locker.  I have sealed the genoa car track with Captain Tolleys and am awaiting the results.  Perhaps, if your stanchion posts don't move, as a first fix to sort out the problem, you may wish to try Captain Tolleys.  This solution has been suggested in earlier posts.

[Kibo]

Don't buy Dow Corning marine sealant buy the cheaper DC bath sealant from the DIY shops. It's exactly the same stuff inside the tube but cheaper because it doesn't have the word "marine" on it.  I am retired from a technical service role at Dow Corning .....

[robertf]

With reference to the screws to fix the thin plywood panels in the lockers - I believe they are A2 stainless on my B32 2002 and a pain to undo, so I have changed them in most of the lockers (about 120 with some spare).  The size is 6*5/8 (https://www.seascrew.com/browse.cfm?SELF-TAPPING-SCREWS-CSK-POZIDRIV-A4-316-STAINLESS-DIN-7982-&l=0000000579) but check yours when you remove them.

PS - Thanks for the advice on the DC sealer!

[KiwiBeanie]

Visited the boat today and stripped out the forward cabin. The good news is that once the vinyl panels are removed you can access the stanchion bolts as the  ceiling liner doesn't go right to hull - the vinyl liner being slight proud of the hull.

Bad news is that is not where my leak is. Using a water blaster to drench the deck water was dripping from the ceiling liner. Easy I thought, it must be the hatch that is leaking so removed the trim surrounding the hatch but this was dry.

Tried the water again directed onto just the deck. I have a teak deck so didn't spray with much pressure but made sure it was flooded. The drip from the edge of the line started with earnest once more. So from what I can tell it appears I have a hole in the deck beneath the teak. The teak needs recaulking so must be  letting water through.

I did a search and came across this thread, which seems to describe my situation. I haven't taken a close look yet so can't be sure there are holes right through the teak but it certainly fits with what I have observed.

http://www.bavariayacht.info/forum/index.php/topic,1441.msg8387.html#msg8387

Recaulking was on the agenda of winter projects so looks like I will need to get onto it sooner than anticipated as rain is pissing in.

I was pretty shocked as i initially thought that it may be a random hole under the teak, which would be impossible to locate without lifting the teak, but if the holes are through the teak and the deck at least I have a chance of finding them.

[Yngmar]

That's probably it. I've drilled mine through with a slightly larger bit and then filled them with thickened epoxy before fixing the caulking above it, so the hole would be forever closed even if the teak or caulking was removed.

If you take a close look in the areas I've marked in that other thread, you might be able to spot the caulk in-fills under which the holes are. Mine were made with a different (inferior) black sealant than the rest of the deck, which is why they failed. They stood proud at the edges a bit and pulling on them made them come right out. No wonder the water got in.

[Kibo]

Having read this thread and the connected one I realised that I have had a similar experience with my boat but not on the deck: this was with a leak around the window sections on the Vision 46.

The "eyebrow" moulding over the main saloon windows is a bonded/glued separate GRP moulding and it seems to me now that Bavaria have a history of holding down sections using a temporary screw with probably a wide block or washer to apply pressure while the adhesive sets.

Once the adhesive is set the screws are removed and the holes simply filled with caulk.

Once this caulk deteriorates then.... hey presto water inside!

This happened on my boat while quite new due to Caribbean sunshine. I found these holes and used epoxy to fill them before over caulking with new sealant on the entire seam. I would advise doing the same with any of these deck "fastening down/temporary" holes too.

[Shine]

I have a couple of leaky stanchions I need to remove and rebed. However, I've been suspecting that the hull deck joint has been the culprit where the rub rail has warped and the sealant has failed. The image below shows a small section of my attempt to fix this. While the gaps were only sporadic, sometimes a few feet in length, I caulked the entire length of the boat on the seam. To make it clean, I masked the along the entire line and used a putty knife to push caulk as deeply into the gap as possible. I'm pretty confident that it will do the job but we'll see!