Which HOUSE batteies are best?

[Jeff Jones]

Hi all.

It would be good to here your opinions and experiences on which house batteries are best to install.

I have just re-powered my Bavaria 34 yom 2000, with a new Volvo Penta D1-30 engine (with a standard 115Amp alternator and delivers 14.2V measured).
The current 140Ahr house battery is on its last legs and as part of the upgrade will need replacing.

I planned to install somewhere around 450Ahr of batteries to provide 12v house power. (The engine starting battery is still good).
I have already removed the diode splitter and installed a VSR relay between the house and starting battery.


So my question:- what house battery type to buy and to get the 'best bang for my buck' (£GBP) so to speak.

I have looked at deep cycle AGM, Sealed Lead acid and Wet batteries and also note that some people use 6v Golf cart type batteries to create a battery bank..

id like to here your experiences, and hopefully that will help me decide which type of battery to go for...

Thanks

 
 

[sy_Anniina]

I am in the same boat - pun intended - and need to replace my house batteries.

The available space, previous owner's setup and my gut feeling gathered while browsing around hundred different recommendations is to proceed with 3 x 190Ah dual use AGM batteries. Additionally I have planned to install a SmartGauge battery monitor to see what is going on and to prevent myself from discharging the batteries too low.

My anchor winch and bow propelled suck from the house bank, thus the selection of dual use and not purely deep-cycle batteries.

How this turns out will remain to be seen in the springtime, today it was still snowing- sigh!

Tommi

[Jeff Jones]

Hi Tommi

that's a interesting point.. I hadn't factored in the windless anchor, on the few time its been used I've always had the engine running...

The first thing I did when I got this boat 15months ago was to fit a NASA BM2 battery monitor, which really does help knowing (generally) what's going on.
One of the things the NASA BM2 doesn't have is a low voltage alarm function, so I am going to install a voltage sensing relay and set it to 12.3v or around 50% state of charge as an alarm to know when to turn the engine and recharge.

regards.

[Ricd]

Hi
I am just in process of re-powering my 2000 B34 with a D1-30 and S130.  Its in place and currently being wired. Am changing splitter and battery cables for additional current from the 105Amp alternator but intend to continue with my 2x120ampH house bats which are 8years old and still had no problem.

Greatful to hear any issues /experience you had on the re-power.  Also, what propeller did you choose.  I am remaining with a fixed 2 blade and have been recommended by engineers to use a 16x11.

cheers
Richard

[tiger79]

Recent production Bavarias are fitted with AGM batteries, which seem to work well.  One advantage of AGM is that they accept charge more easily than other types, so will make best use of the available current.

Mine are Exide EK920 (fitted by Bavaria in 2014).  The current equivalent seems to be the EK950 which is £140 here - https://www.tayna.co.uk/EK950-Exide-Start-Stop-AGM-Car-Battery-017-P9443.html

[Lyra]

Personally, if I had a bow thruster I would probably install a dedicated battery and it would be a starting type battery (and in this case maybe would connect it to serve the anchor as well)
I would try to locate it as close to the bow as possible to maintain shortest possible cables
Starting batteries are built to provide higher burst currents than house batteries
Anchor and thruster are operated for very short periods so capacity is not a real issue and they are generally used when the engine is ON so battery gets charged immediately  (except maybe for a guy I saw one time who was probably so excited about his bow thruster that he forgot that a boat can be steered by its rudder).
Even if connected to house battery there is no need to include their consumption when calculating battery capacity for the above reasons.

[tiger79]

Personally, if I had a bow thruster I would probably install a dedicated battery and it would be a starting type battery (and in this case maybe would connect it to serve the anchor as well)

The factory-fit thruster on my Cruiser 37 has a dedicated battery next to the thruster.  Interestingly, it's an AGM battery, identical to those in the house bank.  These Exide AGMs are designed for hybrid cars, so can cope with frequent starting loads.

[Jeff Jones]

thanks for your info..

Richard - my boat went back in last week after being repower with the same D1-30 + 130s/r sail drive...  it passed its VP PDI inspection for the warranty.
I had pre-wired the engine control cables (EVC + Tacho) to the binnacle (which was really just running 2x multi core cables that came with the engine kit) and did as much pre work to make the yard life easy for the installation (mainly to keep the cost down).

My original engine was a MD2030 +120 sail drive which was a direct replacement and all the engine mounts and diaphragm bolts lined up first time - so no problems there.
The coolant header tank had to be reposition as it clashed with the steps- but no big deal.

1 point to note,
the fuel gauge got its power from the original VP control /starter panel, the new VP panel doesn't have a supply for the fuel gauge, but I may to re-run the fuel gauge cable back the engine MDI, were there is a dedicated connection for the fuel gauge so that will then show on the EVC Tacho display.
I must admit id prefer to keep my existing fuel level display or I'll be left with a hole in the binnacle.

Prop. my original prop is fixed two blade 16x11LH, I had planned to change to a 3 blade folding prop at the re-power, but until the boat came out - I wasn't sure what was fitted..
After the engine supplier did the calculation, it turns out that this 16x11LH prop is still a good size for the engine and boat size, so we re-fitted the original prop.

The engine starting cable from the batteries to the starter is 95mm2 singles, so i haven't needed to change any wiring - i had previously installed a VSR at the battery end and split off to the house and cranking battery under the STB seat where my batteries are located. this seems to work well.

With the new engine and 115A alternator - i tested the output voltage and have not seen anything higher than 14.2v,
but i haven't been able to get a full battery yet even after 6hrs of running - i suspect that when the yard return my boat to its mooring and left on the engine controls and navigation instruments - its finally killed the house battery.
 
i stayed on board last weekend, there seems to be quite a lot of vibration not experienced before with the MD2030, especially since the D1-30 is meant to be smooth running and runs at lower RPM.

The yard who fit the new engine have taken her back in last Monday to re-adjust the engine mounts as 1x seems to be twisted tight and the exhaust pipe seems also too tight - i think both issues are transmitting vibration into the boat internals - stopping the engine from floating on its mounts...

I'll let you know if it successful if i get it back tomorrow..

Tiger, it seems lots of people favour AGM's which would suit a standard 14.2 -14.4v alternator output (without a smart charger or AtoB splitter).

Q. is anyone using Trojan 6V batteries and built a series / parallel bank - it seems a quite interesting way to go - what are the benefits

[Ricd]

Hi Jeff

Thanks for the feedback on the re-powering.  I have repowered from a MD2020 to the D1-30 hoping for improved motoring into choppy seas.  We put engine in place last week and as you say, all just dropped into existing bolt holes perfectly.  My mate who is doing most of the work for me said he was having a little issue with the wiring harnesses supplied (in three parts), ending up with a female to female coupling issue.  He has taken this issue back to Volvo.   Interesting about the fuel level gauge, I will forward him your experience. 

I will certainly PM you and let you know how it all works out.

By the way where is your boat moored?  I am in QAB Plymouth.

Cheers
Richard

[Symphony]

The D1 30 has the same shaft speed as the 2030 and the same power output so the same prop should be fine. However the latest 33/4 with a D1 30 comes from the factory with a 16*13, although I replaced mine with a 16*11 2 blade FlexoFold which is spot on.

[Ricd]

Considered a feathering prop but thought for £250 I would see how the fixed 2 blade goes this season before splashing out further.

[Jeff Jones]

Hi Richard..

The VP extension cables (2off) connect to the engine MDI and run up to the control panel, the EVC push button unit has a seal flying cable which plugs into one of the extension cables and Techo plugs into a MULTILINK and then into the second extension. (See the attached section from the installation manual).

I am on Windermere... (a big pond as someone once called it )

id also be interested to know if you have any more vibration than the 2030?

All the best with the upgrade...

[Ricd]

Thanks Jeff

Just phoned my mate to give your feedback and he tells me all problems solved and engine was run today for as few seconds.  The supplier had supplied one wrong cable apparently. 

Boat goes back in on 14th and the warranty check and commissioning will be done then.  Will certainly let you know if any vibration. 

Cheers
Richard

[Symphony]

Had a 2030 in a 37 and it was very smooth and quiet. D1 30 in new 33 is noisier and a bit of vibration. However not a straight comparison as they are very different boats. D1 should run at 2-300 less rpm at cruising speed.

[Steve burt48]

Hi Guys
Well im running four AGM 150ah Full River deep cycle batts they perform sensationally are forgiving and have been doing all asked from them for the past 3 years with never a whimper, 50ft Bav cruise raydar, chart plot, radio, sound system, 12v TV all the lights no invert er though and works great.
Just my two bobs worth 

[Impavidus]

I would not recommend EXIDE AGM's I have had 3 out of 5 fail in 18 months from new. I have contacted Exide customer service 5 times by mail and by post. To date I have had no reply. However, I have replaced them with 110 Ah AGM's off ebay at a quarter of the price and found them as good as I would expect or as advertised.

Google exide battery problems and look how many problems there are.........

A good quality lead acid flooded battery such as the Bosch range can be good value. I had a pair of 200Ah on my last boat and they were still going strong after 8 years. Top tip is to fit a battery desolator like this;

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/battery-desulfator-and-reconditioner-restore-any-12-volt-lead-acid-batteries/262067785026


It will keep your batteries in top condition and can even restore performance to old batteries. They really work!

Hope this helps.

Ant.

[tiger79]

I have replaced them with 110 Ah AGM's off ebay at a quarter of the price

So the Exide AGMs are about £130.  Please suggest where I might buy alternatives at only £33.

[Impavidus]

Tiger. Hi, if only!  the Exide's were about £280 for the same model number and rating as Bavaria supply as OEM. I got 3 x 110 Ah AGMs on ebay for £83 each delivered. I have one out the back that survived a drop/load test and still has about 20Ah life when fully charged. It holds our gate open but I could still use it on the boat for a mooring buoy for the dingy 

Ant   

[tiger79]

Tiger. Hi, if only!  the Exide's were about £280 for the same model number and rating as Bavaria supply as OEM.
 

I have a 2014 Cruiser 37, which has Exide EK920s as standard.  The current equivalent is the EK950, which is £130.  Not sure where you got your £280 price from, but it's completely wrong.

[Steve burt48]

I would not recommend EXIDE AGM's I have had 3 out of 5 fail in 18 months from new. I have contacted Exide customer service 5 times by mail and by post. To date I have had no reply. However, I have replaced them with 110 Ah AGM's off ebay at a quarter of the price and found them as good as I would expect or as advertised.

Google exide battery problems and look how many problems there are.........

A good quality lead acid flooded battery such as the Bosch range can be good value. I had a pair of 200Ah on my last boat and they were still going strong after 8 years. Top tip is to fit a battery desolator like this;

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/battery-desulfator-and-reconditioner-restore-any-12-volt-lead-acid-batteries/262067785026


It will keep your batteries in top condition and can even restore performance to old batteries. They really work!

Hope this helps.

Ant.

What is this re conditioner you speak of and how does it wire in to battery bank?
Cheers

[Impavidus]

Tiger. Hi, if only!  the Exide's were about £280 for the same model number and rating as Bavaria supply as OEM. I got 3 x 110 Ah AGMs on ebay for £83 each delivered. I have one out the back that survived a drop/load test and still has about 20Ah life when fully charged. It holds our gate open but I could still use it on the boat for a mooring buoy for the dingy 

Ant   

I got the quote from Furneaux Riddall in Portsmouth. They are quite reputable. But, as you say that's not what you can get them for on ebay. After we got no reply from Exide and no help from Clipper I did not want to use Exide again, ever again!! The bow thruster battery is showing signs of failure now with only 75% of capacity on a drop test. But the engine start seems to be ok, to date.
I remain am a little sceptical about AGM's and all the claims about how good they are.

Ant

[Jeff Jones]

Impavidus - id looked at the 'battery Extra' (on ebay) before, its good to here it worked for you with wet lead acid batteries.
My 140Ahr house battery is now not holding anything more that 20ahr of usable power before dropping to 12.2v - knackered.

I've continue researching different house battery options found an very interesting website of a 'RV' live-aboard couple in the USA who have been using LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate aka LFP).  http://www.technomadia.com/lithium

Has anyone any experience of Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries? At first look the benefits seem to be great for sailors,

light weight,
large depth of discharge (>80% of the battery capacity)
Will take as much charging current as you can give them - very quick recharge time
large numbers of deep cycles
don't have to be fully recharge as not to cause damage to wet lead acid batteries.
need very little maintenance

The down side is high initial cost and complexity for sure - they need a Battery Management control system to take care of charging..

Steve Burt48,
thanks for the info - sorry for all the questions
(currently I am favouring buying AGM's so id love to know more about your setup)
when and how do you recharge your 600Ah AGM's?
how low do you take them down before you start the engine?
how long does it take before they are recharged? 

thanks

[Steve burt48]

Impavidus - id looked at the 'battery Extra' (on ebay) before, its good to here it worked for you with wet lead acid batteries.
My 140Ahr house battery is now not holding anything more that 20ahr of usable power before dropping to 12.2v - knackered.

I've continue researching different house battery options found an very interesting website of a 'RV' live-aboard couple in the USA who have been using LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate aka LFP).  http://www.technomadia.com/lithium

Has anyone any experience of Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries? At first look the benefits seem to be great for sailors,

light weight,
large depth of discharge (>80% of the battery capacity)
Will take as much charging current as you can give them - very quick recharge time
large numbers of deep cycles
don't have to be fully recharge as not to cause damage to wet lead acid batteries.
need very little maintenance

The down side is high initial cost and complexity for sure - they need a Battery Management control system to take care of charging..

Steve Burt48,
thanks for the info - sorry for all the questions
(currently I am favouring buying AGM's so id love to know more about your setup)
when and how do you recharge your 600Ah AGM's?
how low do you take them down before you start the engine?
how long does it take before they are recharged? 

thanks

Hi
The "Full River" Batts are in Parallel with positive lead at one end of the bank and neg at the other. Vitron 80amp charger monitor. They run absolutely everything onboard never had a issue with them running low while boats in use doesn't show any significant loss on monitor at all. Engine charge rapidly and maintains them to the point i effectively take no notice of them. Only time i had a issue was i had the yard do some work on her and then when they put her back in the pen they'd left the fridges running (3) and i was away for two months and didnt bother to put her back on shore power. So had very low batteries like 8 volts, so plugged in shore power charger for two hours and they were back in the green and still are to this day. Spend two to three weeks out around the islands with only engine alternator with four kids all the lights plus nav lights never seen a problem. With this many amp hours up my sleeve i dont think i should have a problem either. Cheers Steve "Kasella" Whitsundays QLD Australia.

[Jeff Jones]

Hi Steve, cheers for the information.
your Vitron 80Amp charger is that run off the shore power only? or does the engine alternator run thou it too?

[Impavidus]

Jeff. The battery extra says that it pulses high frequency into the battery breaking up the sulphate crystals the blurb is at the bottom of the ebay advert and on their web site. I am not sure how well these may be with an older battery or one that has a cell that is shorted and discharging the battery. But they do seem to work on some batteries that have seen better days. I have brought two car Batteries back from the brink one of which was the AGM from my Discovery which started giving issues at just 3 years old. Also the wife's Jag a few years ago. Both vehicles now have them fitted with the same original battery and we have no problems.
There is an interesting video on you tube by the Wynns they go through the pros and cons of batteries and explain why they went for Lithium on their cat. Interestingly the say that Lithium can safely be discharged 80% of capacity without damage compared to 50% for most lead acid. The comparison they did is worth watching. See it here;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-kND4PaZm8



One thing not often spoken about is the dangers of Lithium batteries. Apparently they can have issues around catching fire if damaged?

Wiki says: "Lithium-ion batteries can be dangerous under some conditions and can pose a safety hazard since they, unlike other rechargeable batteries, contain a flammable electrolyte and are kept pressurized. Because of this, the testing standards for these batteries are more stringent than those for acid-electrolyte batteries, requiring both a broader range of test conditions and additional battery-specific tests.[10][11] This is in response to reported accidents and failures, and there have been battery-related recalls by some companies"   


Best regards.

Ant.