Bavaria keel damage

[Andriy]

Hi Owners,
After boat hit the rock outside repairs was done ( keel was removed ). Later found that inside the boat floor aft keel bolt compartment base got some cracks with SW inside, probably not proper repairs... only outside.  Will do reinforcement inside the boat. Do I need to inspect other keel bolt compartment as there is no visible crack but sound during hammering is strange in some areas near keel bolts especially in front and aft bolts.
What is the technology of the repairs resealing keel bolts area inside the boat ?
What is the construction of the Bavaria 37, 2007 hull in keel bolt area ?
How we can do diagnostic of the keel bolt area inside the boat ? Hammering, holes ?

[Salty]

Andriy, I said it before, and I'll say it again, "I fear you are about to be taken for a very expensive ride by your charter firm. You mentioned in a posting elsewhere that you trust the charter firm 50/50 whatever that means. My advice to you earlier was not to trust them, and I repeat it again, DO NOT TRUST THEM AT ALL. They will look after their own interests 1st, 2nd and all the way down the line to last before giving you any consideration at all. Do not fall for any appearance of them caring one tiny little bit for your problems, they are not interested all the while you are paying the bills and they deny any responsibility. Already they are trying to pass the blame on to the yard, but unless you were there to actually see the boat being put ashore, and have an independent witness to confirm how it was carried out, then you will be left fighting the yard and the charterer while they merely point the finger at each other and leave you to count the cost. Indeed it would not surprise me at all if both the yard and the charter firm are in bed with each other, knowing that you will end up paying all of the costs. If you have your own insurance and legal representation, then you need to get them involved."

Going by your photos, I'd say that your boat has hit something pretty solid, and with very considerable force. This is also backed up by your posting last year where you mentioned about water leaking in, and where I posted the above comment.
The external cracking combined with what appears to be a significant distortion of the interior of the hull means that the security of the keel connection to the hull has been compromised, as also has the ongoing stability of your boat. To continue to allow your boat to go out on charter without a full and complete repair, not some quick fix, would in the event of your boat losing its keel, turning over and putting lives at risk, would mean that you were as much responsible for any injury or lives lost. So don't look for some quick fix or some inexpensive repair. Get your insurer involved, and just hope that you have cover for legal expenses in order to nail the charter firm that have so far wheedled their way out of taking any responsibility.

Whatever you do, do not let that boat go back to sea without a full and comprehensive repair backed up by a very thorough examination by a very experienced surveyor and a certificate confirming that the repair carried out is a very thorough and sound repair. Alternatively sell the boat for whatever you can get, and put your losses down to experience of one of life's more difficult situations.
In particular, never ever trust a charter firm where you own the boat, because they won't look after your interests unless responsibilities are written down in a properly worded, signed and witnessed document.

[Yngmar]

You need a good surveyor with experience in keel issues and GRP delamination to look at this. This is not DIY grade. It sounds and looks like it might be really bad, there's signs of the hull separating from the keel matrix and your strange hammer sounds are probably signs of the hull delaminating. When this occurs, the keel will snap off and take a hull section with it - and leave a big gaping hole when it goes. You'll sink instantly. This is what most likely happened to Cheeki Rafiki (nobody is 100% certain because everyone aboard died). Looks like it was improperly repaired by simply glassing over the visible exterior crack at the front - this is insufficient, the strength of keel attachment derives from the bonding of the hull to the matrix.

Do not take this lightly and get an expert to look at it. If the hull is delaminated, glassing over the insides is insufficient, the delamination must be repaired, which requires dropping the keel again and rebuilding the affected area - and rebonding it to the matrix. I hope you have good insurance.

[Andriy]

Thank u again for good feedback. At the moment charter Company accept that repairs inside the boat keel area must be done for their account.
Question is how to push them to do work propeply ? If something happened with keel later... do I need to do this additiomal repairs only in presence of the insurance Company surveyor ? What is the procedures from the Bavaria for this kind of late works ? Maybe we need to remove keel again ?
Pls help !

[tiger79]

If it were my boat, I'd be employing my own independent surveyor to advise on exactly how to repair it properly.  It would seem risky to rely on an insurance surveyor or the charter company's people.

[Noelio Abrunhosa]

hi.
you should really contact Bavaria  or a naval architect and get their recomendations. from the pics it looks like it sustained severe structural damage. for piece of mind to anyone using this boat again any repair work must be done properly. not just a visual cover up of damaged areas. you might have to cut the fibreglass back to a strong position not just where visual crackline is.
be mental prepared to accept a total loss.

kind regards

Noelio Abrunhosa

[JEN-et-ROSS]

"If it were my boat, I'd be employing my own independent surveyor to advise on exactly how to repair it properly.  It would seem risky to rely on an insurance surveyor or the charter company's people".

 As tiger79 advises, get your own surveyor.
  A few years ago our yacht was badly damaged while in winter storage. The insurance company 'didn't think a surveyor was required'.
    I, in my inexperience went along with that, a decision that still haunts us.......D'oh!.....................Bill

[Scotty]

Hi Andriy
Definitely think the sensible thing to do is to get your own independent surveyor. You need to contact your insurance company and explain the situation to them. They will know reputable surveyors who can assess the damage and recommend a course of action. In my experience the keel will have to be dropped. That alone will usually mean that some relamination will have to be done as often a layer of fiberglass comes away with the keel. There is only one way to do this job and that is properly. If not it will invalidate your insurance and put your life and others at risk. How do I know this? Well a couple of years ago I hit a submerged object off the coast of Italy. Water seeped in around the keel bolts. I returned to the marina where the boat was immediately  taken out of the water. The insurance company was contacted and surveyor was recommended by the boat yard who was also known to the insurance company and he inspected the damage. Subsequently the keel was dropped, hull relaminated, epoxied, sealed and keel reattached. All paid by insurance. It is not a pleasant thing to witness but for your own piece of mind you need to be there. In my case there was no structural damage just the a cracked keel seal. Cruised over 2000miles since without a problem. All the charter company is interested in is profit. They will do as little as possible to get the boat back on the water, as no doubt they have booked the boat out to clients.

[Andriy]

Thank you. Todaychatret Company start works inside the boat. A piece of aft keel section  was cutted off, found delamination and  sea water. All works stopped until surveyor will come. Find the pictures. My God...

[Salty]

Hi Andriy, it's good in some way that work has started, but I'm inclined to think that if your pictures show the limit of where they have cut back so far, then it's not nearly far enough. Indeed, I would be totally unhappy with any suggestion of continuing to use as a base any of the existing glass fibre within the damaged area, it's all got to be cut away. Anything less will be a skimped job, and that is exactly what appears to be their intention at present. You will know from the hammer tests how far the hollow sounding areas seem to go, and one thing you can be very sure of is that the damage will have gone back a lot further than you thought. As others have said, this is a job that cannot be skimped in any way. So the original glass fibre will need to be cut back and completely removed to a point well beyond the evidently damaged area in order to get back to completely sound and undamaged GRP. Then the edges of the undamaged GRP will need to be ground back further to provide a chamfered area upon which fresh GRP can be laid onto, extending further out with each layer until the new matches the old. I'm not well acquainted with laminating glass fibre, but I would imagine that epoxy resins would be used in preference to polyester, and that Kevlar or carbon fibres may be used in preference to glass, but be guided by your independent surveyor.
In your posting last year you mentioned that you paid the charter firm to provide the insurance, this is not a good situation because it means that you are dependent on the good will of the charter firm, their insurers and the boat yard to see that you get a good job done. Because all three of those firms will be looking to minimise their costs, you will have a major fight on your hands to get them to do what is needed rather than what they think is good enough. For this reason you need a really good and totally independent surveyor to help you fight your corner. Yes, it will cost you for your surveyor to be present, but you can make it very clear to the other parties that if your surveyor does not accept the repair as being entirely satisfactory, that you will not accept the repair. For this reason you also need independent legal representation. On completion, and assuming that the job is done to everyone's satisfaction you need a guarantee for as long a period as you can get that the job is sound and that the boat is seaworthy.
Next you need to consider that your boat is now damaged goods, and that when you come to sell it, that your prospective purchaser will more than likely walk away from any deal once they know about the keel repair. That means that your boat will be unlikely ever to achieve as good a sale value as an undamaged boat. So your independent surveyor should advise you on completion of the repair with their best estimate of the value of the repaired boat, and their estimate of the value of an identical but undamaged boat. The difference is something that somebody will need to pay for, but I wouldn't like to say whether that should be the charter firms responsibility or that of the insurer, but no doubt your legal advisor could point you in the right direction. I wish you good luck, you will need every bit of it.
Remember, don't trust anyone who is connected in any way with the charter firm, their insurers or the yard, and keep your wits about you in regard to your own surveyor, because it's not unheard of for corruption to occur.

[tiger79]

Oh dear, this is a sad story.  I can't imagine how Andriy must be feeling right now.  The boat obviously needs major repair work, and even if it's done perfectly it will deter a future purchaser.  The problem is, there are loads of these boats around, so anything which deters a future purchaser effectively makes it either unsaleable or reduces its value massively.  I think I'd be trying to get a surveyor to declare it a constructive loss, take whatever I could get, and walk away.

[geoff]

I think that there is a bit too much doom and gloom here. About 10 years ago I bought a 1/2 share in a beneteu 411 ,it was owned by a friend who had owned it from new. When about 4months old he hit an obstruction very hard in the approach channel to a large south coast marina [it was a super low spring tide]. The keel cracked the inner floor structure and the laminate around the external keel/hull area. The boat was lifted /surveyed then repaired by a reputable grp specialist co using a plan approved by the manufacturer . I bought my share about 4 years later in the full knowledge  of the repairs. The boat sailed with myself and my wife the long way round into the med and wandered about for 5years before the boat returned to the uk and was sold . At no time during those thousands of miles did I worry about the keel[worried about lots of other stuff though]. The price we received for the boat with full disclosure reflected the fact that it was a PROPER repair signed off by a PROPER surveyor and could not be detected at all. Just make sure that a proper job is done ! Geoff 

[Symphony]

That is the whole point of this thread (and the previous one on the same subject) It doers not seem that the repair is being done properly. There is no doubt a properly repaired boat will be satisfactory - the challenge is achieving that when the boat is managed and insured by  a charter management company which is seeking to minimise coat.

My previous boat was owned through a similar arrangement, but fortunately there was only one significant piece of damage and the manager kept me informed of the repair which was done properly. However, not all managers are that good, particularly when they have pressures to meet deadlines. So, I empathise with the OP.

[Craig]

Everyone should read the annexures to the Cheeki Rafiti report. It is the annexures that contain the scary information on how to repair a hull after groundings.

The investigators questioned leading repairers of keels after groundings and found that they all had different methods of investigation and solutions. Cheeki Rafiti had been repaired after one grounding.

I would insist on a number of repairers advising on the issue and, if possible, someone from Bavaria.

Craig
"Shirley Valentine"
Gold Coast
Australia

[Symphony]

Everyone should read the annexures to the Cheeki Rafiti report. It is the annexures that contain the scary information on how to repair a hull after groundings.

The investigators questioned leading repairers of keels after groundings and found that they all had different methods of investigation and solutions. Cheeki Rafiti had been repaired after one grounding.

I would insist on a number of repairers advising on the issue and, if possible, someone from Bavaria.

Craig
"Shirley Valentine"
Gold Coast
Australia

You need to remember that the construction method on the First is very different from the Bavaria in question as the grid is bonded in rather than solidly laminated.

This is relatively new, which is partly why there is not a consensus as to how to repair them. Indeed one of the recommendations of the report is that designers, builders and repairers carry out further work on how best to repair them.

This is not the case with Bavaria keel support structures (and many other makes of similar vintage and design) where there are well accepted ways of repair. However it seems that the repairers here are not following the correct procedures which at the least require cutting back far further than seems to be the case from the photos.

[Holger]

Andrij, sorry to see that so much damage was caused. I suggest that you contact Bavaria directly (if you have not yet done so)? Given what happened to the Bavaria Match 42 in Croatia in 2005 they should help you to avoid bad publicity which comes with fatal accidents. Bavaria are not only said to be experts in GRP building but also know how they made your boat. Maybe they have already seen similar damage and already know what the best way to repair is. Good luck! Best regards Holger   

[Craig]

I agree with Symphony that the keel attachment on Bavaria yachts seem better than the system used by other manufacturers. I've seem a couple of Oceanis 473s with the grid pulled completely from the hull. The hulls in these cases were not glassed to the grid, merely glued.

My main reason for comment is that it is the repairers that, sometimes,  don't know what they are doing. Also, given the large number of fibreglass repairers and the ( hopefully) few major groundings, I don't believe there is a vast deal of experience out there in repairing keels after major groundings.

In the Cheeki Rafiti report, the design was shown to be good, it was the previous damage that was the likely cause. It does seem that Bavaria do over -engineer the keel hull joins but this will not protect from a severe grounding.

Bavaria should be keen to assist but there appears no way Bavaria is to blame in this case.

I'm surprised that Bavaria don't survey owners to find out details of items that fail in use. It could lead to better product development. Car manufacturers do this through their service centres and they know what parts are being replaced. Unfortunately, you can't do this with boats.

I think the feeling in the market is that German engineering is better than French engineering and I'm surprised Bavaria don't exploit this in the way Mercedes, BMW or Audi do.

Craig
"Shirley Valentine"
Gold Coast
Australia

[Symphony]

I would think they have been listening. The Farr designed boats they have been building for the last 7 or 8 years are very different in design and construction. Having owned both types in my view the latest type are far superior in all respects. Better engineered, stiffer, fairer mouldings, better finished and equipped - which is why I bought one rather than one of the competitors.

Not that there was much wrong with the J&J designs for their time, just that things have moved on in the mass production boat building world. Interestingly they now use bonded in stiffening grids rather than laminated box sections, but they are much more substantial and only take the keel loads as unlike the earlier boats, shrouds our outboard rather than through tie bars to the grid. Lots of other differences in the structure that give the boat a very different feel.