Author Topic: Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube  (Read 10403 times)

JLM701

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Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube
« on: February 01 2017, 16:13 »
My Bavaria 31 has Volvo Penta everything except when it comes to the fuel system when it then becomes Bavaria.

The problem is that the sender does not work (never has) and the Bavaria replacement costs £138.48 + VAT and delivery. Has anyone found a work around or a source for a more reasonably priced spare?

I could change over to Volvo Penta but would need to change the gauge and wiring at about the same cost but at least the spares are available. Oh, did I mention that the Bavaria sender is as rare as hens teeth?

Any helpful suggestions would be much appreciated.

JEN-et-ROSS

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Re: Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube
« Reply #1 on: February 01 2017, 16:47 »
Ours never worked properly either, so a couple of years ago I replaced the sender with a VDO 'dip sender' and VDO gauge bought online from Demon Tweeks ( the sporty car folk). It all cost about £70 for the bits. The nice thing was that they fitted with no alterations required to the fuel tank or instrument panel.

tiger79

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Re: Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube
« Reply #2 on: February 01 2017, 17:21 »
My 2014 Cruiser's fuel gauge is rubbish too!  I can't really understand why.  The sender is a ROAD device - a well-respected German company.  Perhaps there's a mis-match between the sender and the gauge.  Bewildering, and annoying.

Salty

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Re: Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube
« Reply #3 on: February 01 2017, 18:52 »
Surely it has to be because the gauge is designed to work with a regular shaped fuel container, i.e. rectangular or cylindrical in shape rather than one which has a curved boat shape bottom, and where the two ends are of different length and depth, and where the inboard side is vertical and flat while the outboard side is curved from one end to the other as also is much if not all of the under side of the tank.
It's not beyond the bounds of possibility to have a gauge that would actually give a true indication of the remaining volume of fluid remaining in the tank, but to do so would require careful measurement and calculation of the volume at different depths and probably a small piece of computing hardware and software to give a true indication of what is left in the tank. Alternatively throw out your boat shaped tank, fit one that is rectangular, and waste the space otherwise occupied by having a tank that otherwise utilises all, or most, of the space within that part of the hull where it is fitted. To have such a gauge would most likely cost rather more than an arm and both legs, and at which point everyone would opt for a cheaper gauge where they could then have a good grumble about its lack of accuracy.

JEN-et-ROSS

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Re: Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube
« Reply #4 on: February 01 2017, 21:24 »
I should maybe have stated earlier that the cheap VDO units do work much better than the original ones. i.e. it reads 'full' when the tanks' full, and 'empty' when it's empty (the originals didn't). As for the bits between 'full' and 'empty'? well, as Salty pointed out with odd shaped tanks that takes a little getting used to.

JLM701

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Re: Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube
« Reply #5 on: February 02 2017, 07:24 »
Thanks for all the replies. I had looked at the VDO sender from Daemon Tweaks but thought they would not work as they would be in the wrong ohm range. Cars work on 0-90 ohms; 0 when full and 90 when empty. for some reason I thought Bavaria goes to 180 ohm; am I wrong?

Also, how did you get on with changing the wiring? VDO only has two wires whereas Bavaria has three; Pos +, Neg- and signal.

Lastly, to the person talking about tank shapes. It does not matter what shape your tank is a sender will only ever tell you how far up the tank the liquid comes. On a boat it would be essential to know the shape of your tank so that you can tie up what the gauge is telling you compared to what is in the tank. e.g. If the tank reads 1/2 then you might only have 1/3 volume because of the shape of the tank. The only two accurate readings you can absolutely rely on (on boats like this anyway) is FULL and EMPTY.

Lyra

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Re: Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube
« Reply #6 on: February 02 2017, 08:34 »
Being so inaccurate due to the shape of the tank I never rely on the gauge - only on engine hours and average hourly fuel consumption accumulated over the years.
S/Y Lyra
B36 / 2004

JEN-et-ROSS

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Re: Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube
« Reply #7 on: February 02 2017, 09:15 »
JLM701, I didn't have a resistance (ohms) issue as I replaced both sender and gauge with VDO units, and as for the wiring? there was enough existing wiring to connect them.
Lyra is correct, nobody should rely on the gauge and go to sea. All aircraft have gauges but the blokes at the 'pointy end' rely on rather complex fuel calculations before every flight (computers do them now apparently,  the 'boy' used to do them!) The gauges were only there to indicate if something was amiss. (leak? etc.)
Most sailors I've met do something similar.

GeoffV

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Re: Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube
« Reply #8 on: February 02 2017, 09:44 »
I keep it simple and just keep the tank topped up, always have done. That way you are always good to go with no worries.

Salty

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Re: Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube
« Reply #9 on: February 02 2017, 09:57 »

.....Lastly, to the person talking about tank shapes. It does not matter what shape your tank is a sender will only ever tell you how far up the tank the liquid comes. On a boat it would be essential to know the shape of your tank so that you can tie up what the gauge is telling you compared to what is in the tank. e.g. If the tank reads 1/2 then you might only have 1/3 volume because of the shape of the tank. The only two accurate readings you can absolutely rely on (on boats like this anyway) is FULL and EMPTY.

If you look at what I wrote, you will see that is exactly what I said, the problem is that the read out shows what is in fact the level in the tank, but then displays it in a manner where it is easy to think that it refers to the volume in the tank, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 full etc., when this is clearly not the case. A large part of the problem being that average users of the gauge only want to pay the minimum price for an instrument and are happy enough (it would seem) to misunderstand the read out. In your first post above, what you were looking for was an inexpensive instrument.
What I also said is that the level can be correlated to the volume, but that would involve carefully measuring or calculating the volume of the tank at different depths and to provide some form of computing ability for the level to be translated to volume. Inevitably that would add to the price of such an instrument.
Such instruments are around, and have been used on ships carrying liquids in bulk for a number of years. In addition to taking into account the ship shapes of each individual tank, they also take into account the volume within each tank that is occupied by the ship's internal structure. Accuracy can be to the nearest tiny fraction of a litre, but cheap they are not. The value of some of those liquids would take your breath away, so that accuracy is paramount. Years back we only had instruments that would measure the height of the "ullage" space (Height from the surface of the liquid to the calibration point at the top of the tank) and from that and with the use of "Ullage Tables" (supplied by the ship builder), we were able to calculate the volume of liquid remaining in the tank. Such tables are still in use and would be there in order for the automated gauges to be checked periodically for accuracy. The tables also contained temperature corrections, because as you know, the volume that a given amount of liquid occupies is highly dependent on temperature, and atmospheric pressure as well, but that's just an aside.

+1 to GeoffV posting no 8,  that is the best solution.
+1 also to J.e.R at no 7

JLM701

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Re: Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube
« Reply #10 on: February 02 2017, 11:10 »
JLM701, I didn't have a resistance (ohms) issue as I replaced both sender and gauge with VDO units, and as for the wiring? there was enough existing wiring to connect them.
Lyra is correct, nobody should rely on the gauge and go to sea. All aircraft have gauges but the blokes at the 'pointy end' rely on rather complex fuel calculations before every flight (computers do them now apparently,  the 'boy' used to do them!) The gauges were only there to indicate if something was amiss. (leak? etc.)
Most sailors I've met do something similar.
Thanks Jen-et-ROSS. I guessed you might have done. The point about the wiring was that the Bavaria has 3 connections and the VDO only has 2. From what I can tell, the one missing from the Bavaria is the live. I just wondered how you got on.

To all the other comments about the use of the fuel gauge, Yes, I agree with everything thats so far been said. I have always calculated my fuel usage based on engine hours at about 1 to 1.1 litres an hour. All refills are logged along with the amount put in. Thats not really a problem. I just like things to be working and as I have a bit of time on my hands I thought I'd try to crack the problem. It appears that VDO is the way to go. I'll let you know how I get on. Thanks everyone.

JEN-et-ROSS

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Re: Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube
« Reply #11 on: February 02 2017, 15:26 »
Hi JLM701.
  I was wondering if there is no live (+ve) feed to the sender, is maybe that the problem? Also if I remember correctly there are 3 connections to the gauge,     (1) +ve and (2)Ground to the gauge, and (3)+ve to the bulb, the bulb just shares the gauge (2) ground.



tiger79

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Re: Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube
« Reply #12 on: February 02 2017, 15:36 »
My fuel tank sender has no fewer than 6 wires!  Haven't a clue how that works.

dawntreader

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Re: Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube
« Reply #13 on: February 02 2017, 19:20 »
My fuel tank sender has no fewer than 6 wires!  Haven't a clue how that works.

Although not the best copy in the world, this information was sent to me when I changed my float sender to a dip sender. I only needed the top 3 wires to be connected as I don't have the 'intelligent' engine management system

Yngmar

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Re: Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube
« Reply #14 on: February 02 2017, 20:58 »
Mine is a VDO float sensor with what looked like a resistive band on it last I pulled it out to peek into the tank (and has only three wires). It works fine and is reasonably accurate. It's now 16 years old. The analog display has a non-linear scale to match the wedge-shape of the tank and shows full when the tank is full and drops below 1/4th when the tank drops below about 50L (out of 230L) - close enough.

To suck up a sample from the bottom, check for dirt and compare sensor readings with fuel level, I added a copper tube which doubles as dipstick to one of the unused fuel take-offs. Using it as dipstick is simple, unscrew the take-off, shove the tube in to a tape marker, pull it out and see how much of it is wet. The same tube connected to a vacuum pump lets me suck up fuel samples from the bottom. When not in use, the tube is stored on top of the fuel tank. The basic idea for this came from another posting on here (forgot who, but thanks :)

Just had a Google, it's in fact this sensor. Can't be that bad if it gets put into aircraft :)
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tiger79

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Re: Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube
« Reply #15 on: February 02 2017, 21:17 »


Although not the best copy in the world, this information was sent to me when I changed my float sender to a dip sender. I only needed the top 3 wires to be connected as I don't have the 'intelligent' engine management system

Thanks!

Moodymike

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Re: Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube
« Reply #16 on: February 04 2017, 17:25 »
Yngmar,     Are these the rubber grommets that have a plastic tube joining them?  They look the same as the fuel flow and return. Are they attached to dip tubes in the tank?  Have they proved to be leak proof as a result of being removed?

Yngmar

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Re: Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube
« Reply #17 on: February 04 2017, 19:43 »
Yngmar,     Are these the rubber grommets that have a plastic tube joining them?  They look the same as the fuel flow and return. Are they attached to dip tubes in the tank?  Have they proved to be leak proof as a result of being removed?

No, they're brass compression fittings that are cast into the plastic tank. You don't remove them, you just undo the nut (which has a blanking plug where the tube would go) and then do it up again. There were no dip tubes, thus the one I made, which is removed after use. You can see a picture in this thread.
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Moodymike

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Re: Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube
« Reply #18 on: February 06 2017, 16:36 »
My fuel connection's are as per enclosed pics  (B32 2003)  Yours look much more substantial. My question still stands if anybody has the same set up as mine.

tiger79

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Re: Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube
« Reply #19 on: February 06 2017, 17:45 »
My question still stands if anybody has the same set up as mine.

The tank connections on my 2014 Cruiser look similar, rubber grommets with nylon inserts.


suibhne

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Re: Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube
« Reply #20 on: February 07 2017, 14:17 »
I have a Bavaria 36 (2003) and I had a fuel level indicator problem.
Some times it would show zero when there was plenty fuel then later would read properly.
It turned out to be a fault with the meter pointer sticking .

The boat had not been used for about one year before I bought it in 2012.
Also the pedestal had no cover and the fuel meter was at the mercy of the elements.
I bought a cover for the pedestal and with regular use the problem went away by 2013.   

Sailpirate

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Re: Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube and Fuel gauge
« Reply #21 on: October 18 2022, 17:35 »
Hello all, like JLM701 I also have  Bavaria 31 year 2000 with a 90L Diesel tank
I am looking to replace the fuel guage as it intermittently rests at the "1/4" Position when the power is turned off instead of returning to its resting stop just before the "E" on the instrument face.
I have found a gauge which I believe to be correct from the picture attached (non linear scale with "E", "1/4","2/4" and "4/4"). I also know that I have a Float sensor. What I don't know is the measuring range as apparently this Fuel Gauge is designed for sensors with a measuring range of 0-180Ω.
Part number is 207780541 made by Turotest. Any experts can confirm this is the correct gauge.
Thanks, all help appreciated
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Yngmar

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Re: Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube
« Reply #22 on: October 18 2022, 19:20 »
0-180 ohm is correct for the VDO float arm sender.
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Sailpirate

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Re: Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube
« Reply #23 on: October 18 2022, 19:45 »
 Thanks👍 Yngmar
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Sailpirate

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Re: Fuel Tank Sender - Dip Tube
« Reply #24 on: October 29 2022, 19:23 »
Back to this, I am unable to locate a replacement gauge that has the non lineal face (PN on mine 771 129) and no 3/4 mark.
The only replacement on the market seems to be the version with lineal markings (includes the 3/4 mark)
Photos of the differences attached. Can anyone lead me to a supplier in Germany who can offer replacement for the original Turotest gauge
Thanks
The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.