Keel-hull joint & rust

[Philippe]

Hi everyone,

I'm about to sign a sales agreement on a Bavaria 44 from 2004. Even though the yacht will be subject to survey, I'd like to hear your opinion on the condition of the keel and its studs (see attached pictures):

- When on land and supported, the keel shows a thin gap running all around the joint
- The bilge has been cleaned after the yacht has been removed from the water, around the stubs however there seems to be some oxidation of sort

I have not yet, but will be seeing the yacht in the slings before put to water fro sea trial. Hence, I'd like your input on what I should look out for and a mental preparation for the 'worst-case':

Thank you very much for your valuable opinion!

Best,

Philippe

[dawntreader]

Have a read of this thread from the forum: https://bavariayacht.org/forum/index.php/topic,1692.msg10023.html#new

[Kaptajnen]

Philippe,

Looks like there is some corrosion on the keel, so you should consider the cost of treating that (sandblasting and then protecting the bare iron with a layer of anti-corrosion paint).

If there is any separation between the hull and the keel, then the job becomes much more involved and costly. From your description, that seems to be the case 

Claus

[tiger79]

I'd ask your surveyor for specific advice on this issue.  At the least, I'd hope for his recommendation to be to drop the keel, treat rust, and refit with new sealant after checking the keel studs for corrosion.   The cost of this work will be fairly high, so you need to adjust your offer price accordingly.

I'm also surprised how small the washers are; newer boats have substantial alloy plates under the nuts.

[Yngmar]

There's meant to be sealant there - looks like some overzealous antifouling-preparer has scraped it out. Now water got in the joint, as evidenced by the rust stains running out. This means the keel must be dropped, the studs inspected and possible replaced if crevice corrosion is found, and then the keel reinstalled with new sealant. This is a costly process due to needing to hold the boat in slings at least twice, and possibly the rig having to be removed first due to the boat being top-heavy without the keel. Would walk away unless you know a capable boatyard that has done this sort of job before and are prepared to pay a couple grand for it - or make the sale subject to having it properly repaired. Ideally with you present.

The gap at the keel is probably just from the hull deforming slightly as the weight rests on the keel - you'd normally not see it as the flexible sealant would hide it, but since there is no sealant...

Rust on the washers is probably just from salt water sitting in the bilges.

[Symphony]

The gap at the aft end of the keel is not unusual on this model as the first bolt is well forward of the overhanging part. Also the hull deforms a bit in this area. Thiss only becomes a problem if the sealant breaks away around the aft bolts. As the boat is in a cradle the weight is largely resting on the keel, so the gap tends to close up. When it is lifted from the cradle the keel will be free and you will see how big the gap actually is.

There does not seem to be any leakage of water out of the joint further forward where the bolts are, nor any real sign of leakage inside, so the seal may still be sound. The normal remedy for the gap at the rear is to hang the boat in slings, clean out the gap and refill with sealant. However if there is failure of the seal further forward it is a keel off job and as already suggested expensive.

Not a reason to walk away from the boat if the rest of it is good, but ensure your surveyor is aware of your concerns so that he can fully investigate. Might also be worth advising the broker/owner that you have concerns about the keel.

[MarkTheBike]

Referring to the first photo, I would be curious to know why the keelbolts appear off-centre. Ours are either side of the centre-line and the positions of every boat's keelbolts would be determined by jigs, would they not? Why would they be offset?

If it's of interest, our keel-bolt washers (B34/2001) look to be the same.

[Salty]

Referring to the first photo, I would be curious to know why the keelbolts appear off-centre. Ours are either side of the centre-line and the positions of every boat's keelbolts would be determined by jigs, would they not? Why would they be offset?

If it's of interest, our keel-bolt washers (B34/2001) look to be the same.

+1
Salty.

[Craig]

The washers are the standard size for that year of production. They appear to be of a similar size to other Bavarias prior to about 2006(?)

I'm not sure if MarktheBike's comments are correct about the centring. I think the bolts are probably centred along the middle line of the hull. In the photo, I believe the Bow is to the right of the photo and the stern to the left.

Any boat that has had a light grounding could crack the sealant between the top of the keel and the hull. Crevice corrosion of the stainless steel bolts is more likely to occur where limited water ingress has been created. Crevice corrosion occurs in poor oxygen environments such as water seeping through micro-cracks or along joins in cracked sealant.

After being on a Jeanneau 434 with rusty mild steel galvanised keel bolts, I think Bavaria have adopted a better, stronger approach, providing the sealant is regularly checked.

The rust in the photo appears to be coming from the keel. Crevice corrosion leaves little staining until quite severe.

It would be great to know if there is a recommendation as to whether the keel should be loosened, checked and more sealant applied on a periodic basis. ( maybe once every 7 years or so)

Craig
"Shirley Valentine"
Gold Coast
Australia

[tiger79]

The washers are the standard size for that year of production. They appear to be of a similar size to other Bavarias prior to about 2006(?)

My 2014 Cruiser has large rectangular plates under the nuts.

[Symphony]

Same as my 33. However my old 37 was the same as the 44. All part of upgrading - and I think the standard has changed in the meantime. Does not necessarily mean that the earlier boats were inadequate. Thousands were built in that way.

[Philippe]

First of all, thank you all very much for your inputs!

A few questions/comments to your remarks:

There does not seem to be any leakage of water out of the joint further forward where the bolts are, nor any real sign of leakage inside, so the seal may still be sound.

How would I be able to tell (apart from putting her to water) -  what do I have to look for, especially now, that the yacht has been hauled out of the water and the bilge cleaned?

Referring to the first photo, I would be curious to know why the keelbolts appear off-centre.

They're not - it's the smartphone's fish-eye lens making it look like that.

I'm also surprised how small the washers are; newer boats have substantial alloy plates under the nuts.

Yes, I would prefer bigger ones (or a plate for that sake), but as well the Bav 38 from 2011 I owned previously had only marginally bigger washers. Used to be a standard of sort. Which has apparently been changed according to tiger79

[MarkTheBike]

I'm not sure if MarktheBike's comments are correct about the centring. I think the bolts are probably centred along the middle line of the hull. In the photo, I believe the Bow is to the right of the photo and the stern to the left.

You're absolutely right, of course. There's nowhere on Figaro to look at the bolts from the side so it didn't even occur to me. Which is the 'embarrassed' smiley? Here it is - . Let's hope my sight improves before I go for another sail...

[Symphony]

First of all, thank you all very much for your inputs!

A few questions/comments to your remarks:

There does not seem to be any leakage of water out of the joint further forward where the bolts are, nor any real sign of leakage inside, so the seal may still be sound.

How would I be able to tell (apart from putting her to water) -  what do I have to look for, especially now, that the yacht has been hauled out of the water and the bilge cleaned?

I'm also surprised how small the washers are; newer boats have substantial alloy plates under the nuts.

Yes, I would prefer bigger ones (or a plate for that sake), but as well the Bav 38 from 2011 I owned previously had only marginally bigger washers. Used to be a standard of sort. Which has apparently been changed according to tiger79

Look at the keel/hull joint and if there has been any leakage it will show as rust streaks where the water has come out. However if the boat has been antifouled since coming out of the water this evidence may be hidden. As I said earlier as the boat is resting on its keel any gap could have closed up and it would be wise to have the boat lifted out of the cradle to inspect the sealant along the length of the keel. With the keel hanging down any gap is likely to be open.

With regard to the backing washers, the later Farr design boats such as my 33 and tiger's 37 are a very different design and construction to the earlier J&J boats that you are looking at. However, the older boats meet the standards for keel support structures and generally don't give any problems.

[Spirit of Mary]

Bavaria had problems with the keel hull connection with the Match series. There was at least one accident where the keel fell off and persons were killed. Many Match type boats became a reinforcement of the hull between the beams and larger plates under the nuts. Maybe Bavaria did a redesign with the later Cruiser series to prevent any risk, although there was not a problem with the Cruiser series yachts.
Ger

[Symphony]

Bavaria had problems with the keel hull connection with the Match series. There was at least one accident where the keel fell off and persons were killed. Many Match type boats became a reinforcement of the hull between the beams and larger plates under the nuts. Maybe Bavaria did a redesign with the later Cruiser series to prevent any risk, although there was not a problem with the Cruiser series yachts.
Ger

The Match was a completely different design and construction from either the J&J or later Farr designed boats - so completely irrelevant to this discussion. The Farr boats are not influenced by anything that went on with the Match boats being a new design using different principles - for example the reinforcing grid for the keel structure is a very different design, rigging loads are taken by the hull rather than tie bars to the grid structure and the internal furniture, particularly the longitudinal berth fronts are structural.

[Spirit of Mary]

Bavaria had problems with the keel hull connection with the Match series. There was at least one accident where the keel fell off and persons were killed. Many Match type boats became a reinforcement of the hull between the beams and larger plates under the nuts. Maybe Bavaria did a redesign with the later Cruiser series to prevent any risk, although there was not a problem with the Cruiser series yachts.
Ger

The Match was a completely different design and construction from either the J&J or later Farr designed boats - so completely irrelevant to this discussion. The Farr boats are not influenced by anything that went on with the Match boats being a new design using different principles - for example the reinforcing grid for the keel structure is a very different design, rigging loads are taken by the hull rather than tie bars to the grid structure and the internal furniture, particularly the longitudinal berth fronts are structural.

That is what I am saying. No problems with the cruiser series design. However, the brand Bavaria is the same for the Match and the Cruiser and maybe they found it necessery to beef up the plates under the keelnuts of the Cruisers to exclude any risk. Some people also in this Forum question the size of the plates of the first Cruisers!
Ger

[Symphony]

Bavaria had problems with the keel hull connection with the Match series. There was at least one accident where the keel fell off and persons were killed. Many Match type boats became a reinforcement of the hull between the beams and larger plates under the nuts. Maybe Bavaria did a redesign with the later Cruiser series to prevent any risk, although there was not a problem with the Cruiser series yachts.
Ger

Thought I had explained quite clearly that there is no connection between the Peterson designed Match boats and the latest Farr designs.

The connection people made at the time between the Match boats and the rest of the range tarnished the brand and gave the doubters an opportunity to rubbish the boats. In fact the keel structure design of the J&J boats was very similar to most other mass produced boats at the time. Not surprising as they all met the then current standards which have subsequently been updated. So you will see differences in most designs of the last 5 or 6 years.
The Match was a completely different design and construction from either the J&J or later Farr designed boats - so completely irrelevant to this discussion. The Farr boats are not influenced by anything that went on with the Match boats being a new design using different principles - for example the reinforcing grid for the keel structure is a very different design, rigging loads are taken by the hull rather than tie bars to the grid structure and the internal furniture, particularly the longitudinal berth fronts are structural.

That is what I am saying. No problems with the cruiser series design. However, the brand Bavaria is the same for the Match and the Cruiser and maybe they found it necessery to beef up the plates under the keelnuts of the Cruisers to exclude any risk. Some people also in this Forum question the size of the plates of the first Cruisers!
Ger