Author Topic: Furler line friction under stanchion bases (Read 30973 times)

Harveyhall · « **on:** August 26 2016, 02:34 »

Bavaria 36 2005 - Has anyone else had a very difficult time to roll in the headsail in 10 to 15 knots of wind. I am head to windward at the time of furling, if I try pulling the line from the foredeck it is no problem. The friction on the line under the stanchion bases seems to be more than desired.

Is anyone else had that problem and what is your solution?
I had installed a Harken system on previous boats and worked well.
Thanks

Craig · « **Reply #1 on:** August 26 2016, 05:46 »

There is a fair bit of friction on the furling line, if it is the type where the line merely passes through the hole at the base of the stanchion. Some boats I've seen have a pulley arrangement attached to the base of the stanchions. I don't recommend this as it tends to be a good place to collide with your toes.

Only solutions I can recommend are to either, Use the winch, or reduce the friction by putting in a smaller diameter furling line.

Craig
"Shirley Valentine"
Gold Coast
Australia

Salty · « **Reply #2 on:** August 26 2016, 07:29 »

Quote from: Dance Lightly Too on August 26 2016, 02:34

Bavaria 36 2005 - Has anyone else had a very difficult time to roll in the headsail in 10 to 15 knots of wind. I am head to windward at the time of furling, if I try pulling the line from the foredeck it is no problem. The friction on the line under the station bases seems to be more than desired.

I know of two areas where problems can occur that result in difficulty in furling the headsail, though there may be others.
Firstly if the head of the foresail is not as high up as it should be, this will result in the angle between the halyard and the forestay being too small. Ideally this angle should be as large as possible in order to prevent a halyard wrap. In the event of the halyard wrapping around the forestay and the foil used for the furling mechanism, this will result in so much friction that furling the headsail becomes impossible. This situation can occur if the length of the headsail between the head and the tack is not quite long enough, and you have simply shackled or secured the tack to the attachment point on the furling mechanism without looking to see if the sail could go higher. In this instance I suggest you unfurl the sail, release the tack and pull on the halyard to see if the sail will go higher. If it does, you can temporarily make a strop out of several turns of small cord to enable the tack to be resecured to the furling mechanism, and that should make a very big difference.
The second possibility is that within the Furlex furling mechanism on my boat, there is a metal Spring device which fits around the furling drum and which I think is intended to keep the turns of the furling cord as neat and compact as possible. On one occasion this bent inwards reducing the amount of space available and which also resulted in friction making the operation of furling very difficult. So it's worth taking the stainless cover off, in order to check the internals are in good order. This can be done without removing the sail, but be careful not to drop any of the securing screws which are otherwise bound to cause a splash.
As for using a winch to pull in the furling cord, I wouldn't recommend doing that, it is possible to put so much effort into the winch that the furling line will break. My boat used to go out on charter, prior to and just after I bought it, and that's how I know. It also resulted in a lot of other damage which is another story altogether !!

landes_h · « **Reply #3 on:** August 26 2016, 08:48 »

According to Selden manual and to my Bavaria service man in Slovenia one must grease the furler and the halyard swivel. I did as good as possible (only furler) and it improved a bit. I could not roll in by hand before, now it works at least in lighter winds.

Nigel · « **Reply #4 on:** August 26 2016, 09:33 »

I had the same problem. Check that the sheaves in the stanchion blocks are rolling freely and not distorted. I decided to get my sheaves replaced by the manufacturer (Niro Petersen) using sheaves with ball-bearings. Much cheaper than replacement.

Symphony · « **Reply #5 on:** August 26 2016, 11:51 »

Going through the stanchion bases usually works well, and ass suggested lubricating the bearings as in the Selden manual will make furling easier. However, there are a number of different Stanchion Blocks on the market such as Barton and Spinlock with either solid eyes or sheaves. You can get them from any decent chandler or from mail order firms.

tiger79 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 26 2016, 12:58 »

Quote from: Symphony on August 26 2016, 11:51

However, there are a number of different Stanchion Blocks on the market such as Barton and Spinlock with either solid eyes or sheaves. You can get them from any decent chandler or from mail order firms.

The best stanchion blocks are by Harken, with twin ball bearing sheaves, and the furling line goes outboard of the stanchion. I fitted them on my last boat, and they were a good improvement.

Nigel · « **Reply #7 on:** August 26 2016, 18:04 »

Quote from: tiger79 on August 26 2016, 12:58

The best stanchion blocks are by Harken, with twin ball bearing sheaves, and the furling line goes outboard of the stanchion. I fitted them on my last boat, and they were a good improvement.

I got a set of these, but I couldn't make them work. They move the line outside the stanchions, which is great. However it needs to come inside at some point and my only option was in the gate.

MarkTheBike · « **Reply #8 on:** August 26 2016, 18:30 »

I had exactly the same problem on our B34/2001 eventually resulting in a big hoot from a large ferry. After a lot of head scratching, I found four main causes, none of which (apart from #3) were big problems but collectively made going to the bow and hand reefing the only way to do it at all. Now I've sorted all of them out, I can stay in the cockpit and reef with one hand.

With the jib off -

1. ensure the reefing gear is lubricated and running smoothly, top and bottom.

2. make sure the roller foil is straight (i.e. the forestay is tensioned correctly). Tighten the backstay if there's any sag or the whole thing flops like a skipping rope and takes energy out of your reefing effort. Hoist the jib as normal, ensuring the luff is taut and halyard has no slack. If the foil has two slots, use the leading one in the direction of rotation.

3. the 'cupped hands' that Salty mentions are attached to the outer cover and are to ensure the reefing cord stays tight to the drum for those occasions when the breeze pulls the sail out sharply and the cord is snatched into the drum. On mine (Furlex 200) there is, I think, a design fault in that the metal bar 'fingertips' are held by curved springy plastic that have a sharp angle on their edge just inside the bar. This occasionally (regularly for me) allows a little loop of the cord to get trapped between the springy plastic and the drum top. I took a Stanley knife to this and pared it back so it became smooth, allowing any trapped loops to slide back over the 'fingertips' onto the drum when you pulled the cord. Hasn't jammed since. I will try to photograph the modification if anyone is interested.

4. my reefing line blocks are attached to the stanchion bases apart from the one nearest the bow. The resulting shallow angle from the block into the drum favours the cord wrapping nearer the top of the drum, exacerbating point 3 above. I put a stanchion bullseye at the bottom of the pulpit leg to bring the angle closer to 90deg from the drum. True, this brings the line nearer to the bow cleat but if I'm using one then I'm not using the other so it's not been a problem so far.

Hope this helps.

Moodymike · « **Reply #9 on:** August 26 2016, 18:53 »

I would like to see your model as i have had mine jam exactly as described

MarkTheBike · « **Reply #10 on:** August 26 2016, 22:54 »

Quote from: Moodymike on August 26 2016, 18:53

I would like to see your model as i have had mine jam exactly as described

Should be able to get down some time this w/e so will upload photo...

Harveyhall · « **Reply #11 on:** August 27 2016, 07:16 »

Thanks for your suggestions. I will start by looking at lubricating and go from there.
Cheers

Nigel · « **Reply #12 on:** August 27 2016, 11:43 »

Quote from: MarkTheBike on August 26 2016, 18:30

... With the jib off -
1. ensure the reefing gear is lubricated and running smoothly, top and bottom.
2. make sure the roller foil is straight (i.e. the forestay is tensioned correctly)...

I've started a new topic with questions about the above
http://www.bavariayacht.info/forum/index.php/topic,1549.0.html

MarkTheBike · « **Reply #13 on:** August 27 2016, 18:17 »

Quote from: MarkTheBike on August 26 2016, 18:30

...4. my reefing line blocks are attached to the stanchion bases apart from the one nearest the bow...

Update to point #8 above - I went and checked today and this isn't accurate

. There IS a block on the one nearest the bow but it's still too far away and the comment about the angle being too shallow remains true, hence the bullseye on the pulpit leg. I'll try for photos this w/e...

Jackho · « **Reply #14 on:** August 29 2016, 18:02 »

in my experience the jib halyard has too much tension on it.

Salty · « **Reply #15 on:** August 31 2016, 05:41 »

Quote from: Jackho on August 29 2016, 18:02

in my experience the jib halyard has too much tension on it.

Two things that I know of that can cause this,
1. A halyard wrap as I described in my earlier posting and
2. Dirt in the luff groove.
Last winter on shore, the boat next to me had its antifouling area all blasted off before being copper coated. Nice for them, but the crud from the blasting ended up all over everyone else's boats, including inside the luff grooves in the foil of my Furlex system where it stuck. Hoisting my head sail a week or two later I discovered just what a pain my neighbours newly copper coated bottom was going to be. Only by running something up and down inside that groove with copious amounts of washing up liquid and water was I able to clean it sufficiently to ease the amount of tension on the otherwise bar tight violin string, sorry, I meant halyard, sufficient to permit the headsail to be fitted.

Moodymike · « **Reply #16 on:** August 31 2016, 16:00 »

I have made a great improvement to friction by fitting a block and jammer to the stanchion base. There is now a better angle to haul in from the helm or crew.

MarkTheBike · « **Reply #17 on:** August 31 2016, 21:43 »

that is really neat, MoodyMike. I think I'll do the same...

landes_h · « **Reply #18 on:** September 02 2016, 09:20 »

Quote from: Moodymike on August 31 2016, 16:00

I have made a great improvement to friction by fitting a block and jammer to the stanchion base. There is now a better angle to haul in from the helm or crew.

That looks convincing

. Bummer, another project.

Mirror45184 · « **Reply #19 on:** September 04 2016, 07:58 »

Way back in the discussion someone mentioned the furling line being snatched when there is a bit of wind in the jib. It is fairly critical to keep a bit of tension on the furling line when unfurling the jib so it winds on to the furling drum. This ensures that the line layers properly and when you tension it to furl the jib the line does not jamb itself in the drum.

Cheers

landes_h · « **Reply #20 on:** September 04 2016, 10:00 »

Where does that end-block come from?
http://www.bavariayacht.info/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1544.0;attach=1859;image
Looks like some expensive gadget.

Moodymike · « **Reply #21 on:** September 04 2016, 10:10 »

Block is from seldon App £45. Important bit is the stanchion mount from Harken app £27. There are other blocks but they must fit the diameter of the block shaft.

MarkTheBike · « **Reply #22 on:** September 04 2016, 11:39 »

Quote from: Mirror45184 on September 04 2016, 07:58

Way back in the discussion someone mentioned the furling line being snatched when there is a bit of wind in the jib. It is fairly critical to keep a bit of tension on the furling line when unfurling the jib so it winds on to the furling drum. This ensures that the line layers properly and when you tension it to furl the jib the line does not jamb itself in the drum.

Hi Mirror
Yeah, that was me and I agree with you. However, it's sometimes difficult to have enough hands (or feet) free to snub the line when solo. I am sure that the 'cupped hands' around the spool is designed exactly for that purpose and it mainly works. However, the current design means that if loops of line get flicked up between the spool and the top but are trapped by the 'fingers', in my view it's a design fault. If a reefing line is required to be tensioned before it spools properly then that should be part of the design, not reliant on the operator. In fact, a possible solution would be MoodyMike's pushpit mounted gizmo but with a biased block, i.e. spin freely when reefing in but with restricted movement when unfurling that would apply a little drag on the line as it's being pulled onto the drum. No idea if one of those exists but it might work. Another thought would be springy fingers mounted vertically outside the drum casing, either side of the line entry point. The faster the line is spooled in, the more drag from the fingers.
Anyway, I'm off to the boat in a minute (first chance for days) so will photo the mods as promised previously.

MarkTheBike · « **Reply #23 on:** September 04 2016, 23:58 »

Herewith, my modification to the internal spring mechanism for the Furlex 200S. In the photo, you can see the 'cupped hands' that are mounted inside the outer drum cover of the Furlex and my cutaway. The 'fingertips' are metal bars mounted on flat springs. I have tried to do a sketch of the original shape and the bits I cut off. It's not very good but will give an idea. Note: if you take off the cover, be careful with the screw at the front. The nut is loosely held in the cover and can fall out easily. Obviously, it'll then go straight over the side. On reassembly, I tacked mine in place with a spot of sealant but anything will do. Note also that the front screw is slightly longer than the two at the sides.

Sweet As · « **Reply #24 on:** September 05 2016, 10:52 »

Thanks Mark. You have very accurately described the furling issue that I often experience, and the solution.

John