german main sheet system.. possible to retrofit ? worth it?

[Ruby Tiger]

Hi Everyone
I just had my 1 year MOT at Clipper on Ruby Tiger 2015 33c Bavaria.
I looked at other  Bavarias which had this system namely a 37. However the boom is considerably thicker.
I am told that because the sheet is not at the end there is a danger of the boom braking under maximum jibe speed.. (I have in mast furl and a thinner boom.)
I noticed that the new 34 which was not physically available has this system. ? same boom?

I thought this would be a good discussion point because it does mean a clear cockpit with boom brake built in.
However it would mean fitting two pads and  two clutches pulleys etc, as wide as possible on the saloon roof and as close as possible to the cockpit front canopy. (see artists impression on 34 brochure)
Of course the pads are not  there! on mine. and they would need to be quite substantial. So cost could be high.
So has anyone done this, and is it easy to use with two main sheets?
At the moment I do have the friction boom-brake fitted which would be obsolete with the German system.
Nick

[Nigel]

I may be alone in this, but I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Yngmar]

"German main sheet" is a poorly defined term that means different things to different people.

What the OP seems to mean is a coachroof double mainsheet, one on each side, instead of a traveller. This can achieve the same trim that a single mainsheet with a traveller can, but unlike a traveller you lose the trim, while a traveller retains the sail trim when moved on the track. Found a nice sketch of it here: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=8705&d=1354456892

I've sailed on a 45 Cruiser with such a double mainsheet and found it much more annoying in use, as a traveller keeps the trim when moving and the double sheet system does not, plus you need to fiddle with both sheets when sailing downwind. This arrangement does not act as a boom brake at all. The only thing it does is let you do is center the boom and keep it from jiggling around when moored up.

What "German main sheet" often means is an arrangement with only one continuous line whose ends are led to a winch on each side of the cockpit. This lets you adjust the mainsheet from either winch and is mostly used on large cockpits with twin wheels so you can use the winch near the wheel. This setup either has an additional traveller, or sometimes no traveller at all, and without one and without the double mainsheets you have limited options for going upwind. This doesn't perform the function of a boom brake either, so I have no idea what you mean by that. Illustration here: http://s300.photobucket.com/user/hectou/media/mainsheet_9.jpg.html

If the mainsheet in the cockpit bothers you (something I can definitely agree with), that is really something to think about at purchase time rather than retrofit later. For the double mainsheet conversion, you not only need two very strong eyes, but also two backing plates to mount them to. On my Bavaria, backing plates are glassed in aluminium plates with threads cut in and if those aren't there, you have some big modifications to do, and your coachroof may not be designed to carry these high loads at all. Your boom, as you already described, most certainly is not - mid-boom sheet loads are much higher than end boom and you would also need suitable fittings on the boom. One thing you can do is peek into your ceiling and look for the backing plates (you can see them through the GRP on a sunny day). If they are there, your coachroof would probably be up for it, but you may need a stronger boom (Selden will likely be more useful with advice than Bavaria regarding boom loads).

Personally I like my mainsheet out of the cockpit and at the boom end and that's why I bought a rare center cockpit Bavaria 

[MarkTheBike]

...Found a nice sketch of it here: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=8705&d=1354456892 ...

excuse my ignorance but isn't the becket line going the wrong way round the block? I can't see how it works as shown.... (it's a nice drawing, though).

[Yngmar]

...Found a nice sketch of it here: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=8705&d=1354456892 ...

excuse my ignorance but isn't the becket line going the wrong way round the block? I can't see how it works as shown.... (it's a nice drawing, though).

Sure is. Well spotted.

[ANTREVELL]

I have a 33c and have never really got on with the table mounted system.  I also looked at the German system but have not sorted the situation Would be very interested if someone does.

Regards Tony

[Ruby Tiger]

So as i suspected the twin mainsheet is not the best solution.   I did say in my original post to look at the 34 online brochure to see what i was talking about.  I also think the point made about the stresses on a mid boom are valid.
Also the stress on the roof is also valid. A track would still require the reinforced deck and  extra lines, and mid boom anchor point. 

To answer the point about choosing your boat with a different system, to put it bluntly the budget dictated buying this boat. I have been a dinghy sailor before this and thought  the mainsheet was , what i  was used to.  In practice it works , but does catch out the odd inexperienced crew .  I started this thread to see if there were practical/affordable alternatives which would leave the cockpit clear.
I have solved one problem of the boom swinging side to side down wind ( and hence the mainsheet) with a witchard boom preventor which i have  rigged with a single pulley to the boom and the friction rope tied at each end to the mid cleats.  This was particularly effective coming back from Cherbourg to the needles this week as there was considerable side roll which would cause the boom to dip and thus jibe, enabling a more direct course.

So  to conclude , I shall probably stay as i am but still look for mods to make life better.

To tony i would recommend the witchard friction boom brake/ preventer as it removed one of the hazards of the present system. I installed it after a crew member was caught across the neck by the main whilst having his back to the main when using the genoa winch (mid cockpit).  I now insist  the use of the rear winches whenever possible.

Nick
Ruby Tiger

[ANTREVELL]

Hi Nick

I do have a witchard boom preventer since like your colleague the main sheet got around my neck picked me up and smashed me against the cockpit side resulting in a broken rib. Very painful and many weeks to heal.   I guess all centre cockpit mains could do the same thing .
I am now just very cautious regarding me and my crew. I do find the preventer a bit hit and miss adjusting to get the tension right.

Regards Tony
 

[Ruby Tiger]

Hi Tony ,
sorry to hear of your experience, I am sure we are not the first which is why Bavaria are offering a different system on the 34.
Question , are they offering the 34 system as standard on new 33cs??
Question which boom does the 34 have??
Do you have rear winches because that definitely takes the crew out of range most of the time ?
Nick
Ruby Tiger

[Symphony]

One of the reasons I bought my new 33 was the sail controls. Previously I had an older 37 with a much larger genoa and the mainsheet on the coachroof. I sail mostly on my own so being able to handle the sails from the wheel was a requirement. I have the extra aft winches (with a handle for each) which deals with the genoa. Can reach the mainsheet easily from the wheel. However the first thing I have done is replace the 8mm sheet with 10mm as I found hardening in the main difficult with the original. Still not ideal and I shall probably make up a cascade to try. does not help with the problem when gybing, although as it is me mostly I am behind the wheel so out of direct line. The sheet does however tend to hook round the forward winch as it goes across.

Not sure the double ended system would be any better for me as it would need to come back to the aft sheet winches to be any better for access from the helm. I can see the attraction of it for Med charter boats as the current system limits the type of bimini you can fit. I had my old boat in the Med and the bimini went forward to the spray hood. For sailing single handed I had a long tail on the mainsheet so could bring it back to the helm if needed and added an extra cleat to take it.

On balance I think the current 33 arrangement for single handed at least is the best compromise. Retrofitting the system off the 34 would be quite a big job as expect reinforcement would be necessary on the coachroof the take the traveller, or eyes for blocks and extra turning blocks. Suspect the boom section is different to take the sheet attachment further forward on what is quite a long boom.

[Salty]

.....For sailing single handed I had a long tail on the mainsheet so could bring it back to the helm....

I sail single handed on my B36 (2002), and one of the main reasons I fitted an autopilot was so that I could handle the sails without being tied down to having to remain at the helm. I also purchased a radio controlled device from Raymarine so that I could control the helm from anywhere onboard, but haven't actually needed to use it yet other than to try it out.

[Symphony]

I also have an autopilot - but the one i had on the old boat was very unreliable and there are times when you might want to be steering manually.