Author Topic: New Rudder: Insurance Problems  (Read 17622 times)

JEN-et-ROSS

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New Rudder: Insurance Problems
« on: March 14 2016, 11:34 »
Hi.
   Tales of woe ! :(
     During the winter of 2014 a large boulder dislodged from the the steep slope behind our yacht (Bav 38 Lagoon 1991) and struck the rudder.
The damage included the top bearing torn from it's carrier, this allowed the rudder stock to pivot breaking the lower bearing carrier free from the hull.
The rudder 'skin' was broken in two places and the stock was bent.
Our insurance company paid out, but rather than replace the rudder stock they had it straightened. This has turned out to be a bad idea as the rudder stock is now showing a distinct bend again at the point of the original bend, so our sailing season is going to be delayed since bending spade rudders don't instil much peace of mind.
    We can only assume that the original injury or the process of straightening it has caused a fracture in the 100mm aluminium rudder stock.

    I only noticed this last week as we began the preparations for anti-fouling, I've contacted the insurance people who have agreed to a new rudder/stock.
The problem is that the only company I can find who say they can fabricate a new rudder in a reasonable time is Jefa, and they have been very helpful. :)

Does anybody know of a company in the UK who can do this? or is there a source of spade rudders for elderly yachts?
Any pointers to speed us back onto the water would be greatly appreciated......................Bill

Symphony

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Re: New Rudder
« Reply #1 on: March 14 2016, 15:51 »
Don't think there is anybody making that sort of rudder these days in UK as very few new boats are being built here - and some of them have Jefa rudders. similarly the chances of finding a used rudder to fit are vanishingly small. You will not regret having a rudder from Jefa.

JEN-et-ROSS

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Re: New Rudder
« Reply #2 on: March 14 2016, 16:14 »
Thanks Symphony. You have confirmed what I was beginning to think.
DDZ in Largs think they may be able to source one and have put out the necessary feelers, but failing that it looks like Jefa...............Bill

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Re: New Rudder
« Reply #3 on: March 14 2016, 20:12 »
Jen-et-Ross

Commiserations. I don't know if that chap (Peter Jereb) who contacted Nigel recently might be able to help, thread here - http://www.bavariayacht.info/forum/index.php/topic,1256.0.html .

Not in the UK but seemed very helpful so may ship if there's something suitable....
ATB

Mark

JEN-et-ROSS

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Re: New Rudder
« Reply #4 on: March 14 2016, 21:32 »
Thanks for the pointer Mark, I've just sent SVPYACHTS an Email with the details, so fingers crossed, though being an older Bavaria it may be a long shot.
 I'll let you know if I get a result..................Bill

Yngmar

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Re: New Rudder
« Reply #5 on: March 14 2016, 21:57 »
A brand new Jefa rudder paid for by the insurance? What's not to like?
(formerly) Sailing Songbird  ⛵️ Bavaria 40 Ocean (2001)

JEN-et-ROSS

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Re: New Rudder
« Reply #6 on: March 15 2016, 10:38 »
A brand new Jefa rudder paid for by the insurance? What's not to like?
  Ha!! I do agree, but insurance companies being what they are want to see three, yes, three written estimates for the supply of a new rudder. (that's their S.O.P.)
As we are all aware this is a tall order, so I'm obliged to go through the motions and jump through hoops to establish Jefa as the only reasonable option in this part of the World. C'est la vie......................Bill

Salty

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Re: New Rudder
« Reply #7 on: March 15 2016, 11:42 »
Hi Bill,
I wonder if it might speed things up if you went back to your insurers on a slightly different tack, namely that the consequent delay and loss of amenity by not having your boat available to sail as you would reasonably have expected had a full and proper repair been carried out at the time. Specifically this has been as a result of having the rudder stock straightened at their insistence instead of being replaced, and where that straightening has resulted in a weakness which has now manifested itself. In order to minimise your loss of amenity would they contact a yacht charter firm near to your location to authorise the hire and payment for a yacht of similar size and age to yours that you can use until such time that they have sorted the problem which was one of their own making. They might then be a little happier to accept that you have actually found someone, anyone, who can provide a new rudder in a fairly short period of time.

MarkTheBike

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Re: New Rudder
« Reply #8 on: March 15 2016, 13:55 »
Very good point, Salty.
ATB

Mark

JEN-et-ROSS

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Re: New Rudder
« Reply #9 on: March 15 2016, 16:37 »
Well. I've just received this lengthy missive from HAVEN Knox Johnson (Amlin), divorcing themselves of all responsibility.
 I'm just off the 'phone having gone through them like a 'dose of salts' (Scots expression for putting your point loudly and forcibly)
They did agree that if I had bent the rudder by hitting a rock last year they would pay out happily, but since unseen damage was caused by the boulder 2 years ago they won't, They're blaming the original repairer for not spotting the impossible. Surely Comprehensive Insurance is 'Comprehensive'
  They have agreed to send a surveyor after I refused to get off the 'phone, so that's a start, but the whole thing leaves a very bad taste and unless they accept the risk that I've paid them for I wouldn't recommend HAVEN to anybody.
  As for Salty's suggestion?, I think pigs might fly......................................... Bill              ( I've never added an attachment to the forum before so here goes)


Salty

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Re: New Rudder
« Reply #10 on: March 15 2016, 19:31 »
Bill, as I see it, there are some words within Haven's reply that give you some leeway.
1. They talk about whether the new incident is linked to the original repairs, or if it is a completely new incident. So, does the position of the current bend in the rudder stock coincide with the original bend? This would not be entirely conclusive, but would lend credence to the original bend and subsequent straightening having weakened the rudder stock.
2. "Check rudder stock has not been damaged." Presumably Mainsail Marine would have produced a written report of their findings which hopefully they sent to Haven along with their proposed repair strategy. It would be useful to get a copy of that report, along with any reply to it from Haven. In particular is whether there was any intention or requirement for a detailed investigation of the metallurgical affect that straightening would have on the strength of the rudder stock, and also if there were any weasel words that would enable Haven to pin the blame on Mainsail. But keep in mind that it would also have been negligent for Haven not to have specified adequately about the residual strength of the rudder stock, particularly as it was straightened at Haven's insistence instead of replacement which hopefully was a request you made to them in writing.
3. On the 26th of June 2014 you said "The repairs so far" etc "have been entirely satisfactory." As I read that, what you have indicated is that up until that date, just four months after Mainsail submitted their estimate, and therefore presumably a lesser time between the actual date of the repair and the date of your statement, that the repairs appear ok. This short period of time cannot be considered as anything other than what you have said, namely up until that moment things look ok, but that cannot be assumed to be a guarantee from you that all really is well, particularly if you are not qualified in regard to the residual strength of the rudder stock. As for the residual strength of the rudder stock, unless they know otherwise I'd say you need to lay it on thick that you are not and were not qualified to make any definitive comment in that respect.
4. Haven say that you had legal representation in effect at that time which you can use, so go and grab it with both hands, but make sure that the legal firm will provide totally unbiased help. It could be worthwhile checking your household insurance to see whether you are also covered under that policy for legal help. It will not be to Haven's advantage for this matter to go to court because you live and presumably the boat was located in Scotland where separate laws apply from the rest of the U.K.
5. Haven did not appoint a surveyor, and they admit that they would not have paid for one even if you had asked for one despite that part of the damage to your boat had the potential to affect its seaworthiness. In that respect I would suggest that they were negligent not only in that respect, but also in respect of the fact that they authorised the work that Mainsail did, and it would seem, they did not seek unbiased assurance from someone qualified to give it that the work had been fully and properly carried out.

As for "pigs might fly," if you don't ask, you don't get, so good luck, you will need it.

P.S. I should have the name of a decent loss adjuster who could help, and if I can find it I will let you know. He comes from Kent, but may be able to advise on an alternative person that lives closer to you and would cost less for them to travel to you.

JEN-et-ROSS

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Re: New Rudder
« Reply #11 on: March 16 2016, 13:07 »
Salty. Thanks for your observations, and to answer you queries:-
1)The bend is in the same place and in the same direction.
2)Mainsail Marine are boat repairers not surveyors or specialists. HAVEN were asked if they would provide a specialist but declined, saying they didn't think it necessary. I have no issue with Mainsail's work. Denied the skill and equipment of a specialist, Mainsail's check of the rudder stock could only be visual.
3)As you pointed out, I'm no authority on rudders so why then did they ask my opinion. There should have been a surveyor overseeing the repair.
4)I should use the Legal Protection to sue HAVEN instead for their lack of 'duty of care'.
5)I agree fully that they are negligent, in the past 2 years we've sailed about 1800 miles, including 4 'Minch' crossings and the Irish Sea. If we had lost our rudder we could have lost the boat.

At least now we are getting the services of a surveyor, and a good one at that.
Incidentally, the quote from Jefa came in today at £2046 +vat. not including the adaptive work involved in it's installation..............Bill

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Re: New Rudder
« Reply #12 on: March 16 2016, 18:59 »
Maybe I have misunderstood but I am not sure that the insurers have been negligent. Just because they paid out on the claim does not necessarily make them responsible for the work. I am not clear whether you originally asked for a new rudder - or that was recommended by the surveyor and the insurer insisted on having it repaired, or whether the original assessment proposed a repair.

That is significant because it is difficult to see how the insurer can be responsible for a subsequent failure that is not in itself an insurable risk. Normally insurers would accept evidence of completion of the work for payment of your claim, but that does not make them responsible for subsequent failures.

I suspect they will dig their heels in over this (as they already seem to have done) and you will have to prove that they were negligent in specifying an inadequate repair. From what you say, perhaps they have not.

Yngmar

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Re: New Rudder
« Reply #13 on: March 16 2016, 19:39 »
Incidentally, the quote from Jefa came in today at £2046 +vat. not including the adaptive work involved in it's installation..............Bill

To avoid any further shocks, note that Danish VAT is currently at 25%.
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JEN-et-ROSS

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Re: New Rudder
« Reply #14 on: March 16 2016, 21:18 »
Symphony. I'm not sure I understand your thinking.
  At the time of the original damage HAVEN refused to appoint a surveyor, This led to Mainsail, who are boat builders, (good ones) reluctantly having to make a decision on the serviceability or otherwise of the bent rudder stock. This was a situation that I was uncomfortable with at the time.
 My point is that had HAVEN commissioned a surveyor we would not be in this situation now as a new rudder would have be installed, and a substantially larger financial hit for HAVEN would have resulted.
 By not providing the services of a surveyor or specialist they got off very lightly financially by suggesting the stock could be straightened.
 They ARE now sending a surveyor, as I believe they should have done in the first place. So if a new rudder is recommended then HAVEN are no worse off than if they had sent the surveyor two years ago,
  It would also prevented recent sleepless nights at the thought of the possible lucky escapes we had by not losing our rudder at some inconvenient  moment during the last couple of seasons, so, yes, I do believe our safety was put at risk to safe money, hence negligent.

Symphony

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Re: New Rudder
« Reply #15 on: March 17 2016, 10:09 »
Think you will have a difficult time in trying to prove that not sending a surveyor is negligence. The insurance company's only responsibility is in meeting your claim if it is covered by the policy. They are not guarantors of the quality of the work. If you had wanted to have the repair supervised by a surveyor perhaps you should have appointed one and made this part of your original claim.

Easy to be wise after the event, but the insurer accepted a quote from the repairer so no reason why they should then have got a surveyor to check unless there was a dispute about the claim. Just having a surveyor look at the boat now does not necessarily mean he will agree with you. He is being paid by the insurer and he may well report that the current failure is not a consequence of the original claim.

Sorry if it sounds a bit harsh, but the insurer has settled your claim based on the claim you originally made. So I can see their reluctance in re-opening the case.

JEN-et-ROSS

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Re: New Rudder
« Reply #16 on: March 18 2016, 11:07 »
Rudder examined by surveyor yesterday ( at Haven's expense ).
  Interesting conclusion, yes the rudder is bent but it's not the stock, it would appear that the two GRP 'skins/sides were refitted badly and not parallel with the stock giving the distinct impression that the stock was bent. (I was wrong, Ooops!!)
  Apparently it's sound structurally but if we ever sold the yacht ( not intending to, but) we could run into difficulties. So the plan is to go sailing as planned, and on lift-out in October Mainsail will drop the rudder back out and complete the job correctly.
  Very thorough examination by surveyor as it took over 3 hours.
Many thanks for all your advice, all much appreciated.........................Bill

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Re: New Rudder
« Reply #17 on: March 18 2016, 11:24 »
Good result. Bet that is a relief not having to fight the insurer!

JEN-et-ROSS

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Re: New Rudder
« Reply #18 on: March 18 2016, 11:43 »
Good result. Bet that is a relief not having to fight the insurer!
       Oh Boy!. it sure is.................

Salty

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Re: New Rudder
« Reply #19 on: March 18 2016, 14:07 »
That's an interesting conclusion, though I don't see how they could have misaligned the sides of the rudder in relation to the shaft. Did Mainsail agree with the surveyors report, because that reflects on Mainsails ability to carry out a repair properly? Or is something being swept under the carpet to avoid loss of face?

JEN-et-ROSS

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Re: New Rudder
« Reply #20 on: March 18 2016, 17:16 »
Salty. I spoke to the bloke who runs Mainsail this morning. He is very apologetic and is liaising with surveyor to carry out the remedial work over the winter.
   Also, since I flagged up a rudder problem with Haven, it might not be very good idea to just go off sailing having put doubt in their minds over the integrity of the rudder, as if there was an issue they might say I was irresponsible and not cover us. So Mainsail are supplying paperwork to certify that although it looks a bit odd and squint, it is structurally sound.
   As to how it happened, our rudder is no 'laminar flow blade' and has it's maximum thickness just behind the stock, probably in the region of 140-150 mm. the stock tapers as it goes down, it's surprising, but there is a lot of space inside to be filled, they just got the stock far too close to one side, enough to make look slightly bent.
Gave me a fright though !!...........................Bill

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Re: New Rudder
« Reply #21 on: March 18 2016, 20:15 »
Thanks Bill, I have to say that I'm not familiar with the inside of the rudder, but thought that there would have been a series of built in mouldings within that would have held the rudder stock in a central position, and conversely would also have held the side extremities at a set distance away from the stock such that sides could only fit back together in one way, i.e., correctly or not at all.

JEN-et-ROSS

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Re: New Rudder
« Reply #22 on: March 18 2016, 20:31 »
Apparently not Salty. It seems that when they 'split' a rudder they need to remove the material that was used as 'infill'. It then, I've been told, leaves you with two rather floppy sides that is filled with new 'infill'. Without the original mould to support one side while all this is going on it can all go pear-shaped, Basically someone was careless..................Bill

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Re: New Rudder
« Reply #23 on: March 18 2016, 20:44 »
Thanks again Bill, I've learned something new today.

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Re: New Rudder
« Reply #24 on: March 19 2016, 11:30 »
Jen-et-Ross.

A few thoughts.

Are you members of the RYA? Are you in a sailing club that is RYA affiliated? If so, Free legal representation and advice. The legal team is brilliant, I know of someone who had a prop fall off a new power boat in Chichester, the shaft actually sheared on the duo prop through a metal defect in the shaft. Volvo and Sealine would not budge saying he had hit something.

One letter from the RYA solicitor and the everything was replaced. Sealine and Volvo could not do enough. Ring the RYA and ask them for advice even if your not a member?

Another tack may be to contact the insurance ombudsman. Tell them you are doing this.

Write to sailing today, PBO, Yachting magazine. Tell them you are going to do this.

Copy and paste this thread into a letter tell them about the bad publicity they are getting in on line forums. Not just this one, post on others too.

Write to Robin Knox-Jonson, he is retired now and I believe the insurer only bares his name, but I am sure he will not want to be associated with such sharp practice.


You may want to remind them of their legal obligation to return you to the position you were in immediately before the incident. The position you are in now is a direct consequence of their actions not yours.

If you are in the UK or purchased the insurance in the UK seek a county court judgement (or what used to be called a small claims court judgement) Its about £150 to get the summons sent out. You may have to go through an arbitration process first. You can get this back from them as well as any expenses,  but tell them that's what you are going to do first. 

Good luck.

Hope this helps.

Ant

         
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