Author Topic: Heavy weather sailing  (Read 2687 times)

MagicalArmchair

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Heavy weather sailing
« on: August 19 2021, 12:10 »
My J & J Bavaria 2002 40 feels wonderfully solid, however, I've never been out in anything over about 35 knots of wind (haven't had the boat more than two years), or a big sea way. We'd like to go further afield. In my old Albin Ballad I went out in all sorts, and had complete confidence. I need to go out in a blow to shake her down and build that confidence in Mirage.

There was an article in last months Yachting Monthly re the Essence, the Bav 47 that capsized, and a number of elements failed resulting in her sinking.  Primarily her main hatch (presumably the standard fit Lewmar) and the larger windows. Note, the rig stayed up on inversion and the rest of the boat was sound, which is a testament to the structure of the boat itself.

https://boatingnz.co.nz/anatomy-of-a-rescue-essence-pt-2/

Report here: https://www.maritimenz.govt.nz/commercial/safety/accidents-reporting/accident-reports/documents/Essence-mnz-report-22July2021.pdf

This topic has some great heavy weather advice: http://bavariayacht.org/forum/index.php/topic,2230.msg14367.html

  • Do you have a contingency if you hatches blow out? Something to, well, batten them down or board them off? My 40 has none of the big windows that 47 had, however, it does have the forhatch that failed.
  • In the above, the crew member reports they were sailing at 7 to 8.5 knots, so not overly pressed, at the time of capsize (freak wave?). When do you switch to bare poles? In the above wind was touching 60 knots and they had a small staysail up and main with third reef.
  • What's the most wind and biggest seas you've been out in? Did you have to switch to survival mode ever?
  • What's the longest passage you've made?
  • Does the standard Type 150/400 / ST6001+ chain driven Autopilot keep up in big seas? If not, how long will it keep up for before being overwhelmed when running from large seas? What system could be trusted in those seas (if any)?
  • Do you carry a drogue? If so, which one? (I quite like the idea of this guy: https://www.oceanchandlery.com/seabrake.html). Have you have used it if so? (I would be in Craigs camp for duck and cover if possible). What would you attach the bridle to? The sheet winches would seem the obvious strong points as I doubt the aft cleats would take the load. At which point would you deploy a drogue (at first knockdown for instance?)?

Yngmar

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Re: Heavy weather sailing
« Reply #1 on: August 19 2021, 15:32 »
I've read that report a few days ago, as it was a 47 Ocean, so close relative of our 40 Ocean. Except we don't have the big windows that broke. According to the report, they shattered outwards due to hull flex, so they must've been glass windows. We don't have any glass windows except for the windscreen, which is outside and won't flood the boat when shattered.

The open hatch is a bit of a mystery. The report didn't say why it opened, but it said it was found open after having been closed, rather than ripped off. So I suspect it maybe wasn't locked, in which case wave pressure could have opened the exterior handles. Our exterior handles disappeared in a storm[1] where we had rammed the bow under water a couple times, but since the inside ones were locked, the hatch was fine. The water pressure was strong enough to tear off epoxied handles, so it would easily be strong enough to turn unlocked ones to the open position.

The hatches on the Oceans were either Rutgerson or Gebo, and from the pictures I've found of Essence, it looked like Gebo (same ones we've got). The Gebo hatches are pretty well designed and strongly built and I'm not too worried about them. In the aforementioned storm, our forward one let in a few drops of water through the seal as we had waves on the foredeck and like I said, the exterior handles got torn off and disappeared, but the hatch was locked and I doubt it would open. Most likely they forgot to do that, perhaps out of habit. The usual fallback for dealing with a smashed hatch would be to screw one of the plywood locker tops over it, but in reality I think it would be near impossible to do that on the foredeck in those conditions - same reason the crew of Essence didn't install the storm covers they had aboard. You'd be under water a lot of the time and powertools wouldn't work even if you could go and find the right tools and materials while being tossed about in the cabin.

The autopilot (with the upgraded added gyroscope box) copes fine and the drive has plenty of power, but that doesn't matter, because you will need to helm manually in those conditions with any autopilot in the world - none of them have eyes, and you need to steer up and down the waves yourself or risk smashing into a valley. We did fall down into the trough a few times (whenever my sunglasses were encrusted with salt and I couldn't see without them due to painful water particles driven in my face by the wind) it was very a scary bang with just 4m waves - the crash is epic and I can totally see the hull flexing enough to shatter the big glass windows on the 47 Ocean. So this must be avoided by steering up the waves at an angle and then straightening up at the top so you don't broach in the bottom, and the autopilot can't do that.

Wind strength doesn't really matter until it gets over 60 knots sustained, which is rare. Then it starts tearing bits off the boat (solar panels, canvas, unsecured sails, etc.) and most of those you can secure beforehand. It's the waves that make all of the trouble. For wind, you reef deeply or sail barepoles to your liking. Reef early, and learn how to do it without turning into the wind, as that won't be possible. The other time we had to sail in a storm was in last years medicane, going from the Othonoi islands north of Korfu to the SE corner of Sicily. We were in the NW quadrant of the storm which was going eastwards - it wasn't too bad, wind was only 40-45 knots and we had a scrap of mainsail out (perhaps 1-2 square meters, just a bit more than the furled in main would be) and surfing down big waves at 7-8.5 knots with good control and still under autopilot this time (there was a good bit of current going with those waves, which helped lengthen the intervals). The Genoa would've been better, but it didn't really matter and you don't make changes in those conditions if you don't need to - just more risk of something going wrong.

Waves are hellish, especially in the med, where they come at very short intervals and with very steep fronts. At more than 3-4m wind wave you won't be making much progress upwind and will have a horrible ride in a 40 footer. In the Atlantic where the waves are further apart, this is a different story, but even their eventually your best choice is to turn around, go downwind, enjoy a vastly smoother and safer ride and just get back on route when it's all blow over - assuming you've got the room to do that.

A point panicked skippers often forget is that it's much more dangerous to try and enter the wrong harbour in those conditions than to ride it out at sea.

As for a drogue, the widely agreed best solution is a Jordan series drogue attached to very well reinforced strongpoints at the stern. We don't have one as it's a bit pricey, but I'd probably take one across the Atlantic if we ever end up doing that. So far we haven't missed it! :) We can resort to towing a few loops of thick mooring lines in lieu, but never had to do that.

The drogue would be deployed when the waves are getting too big to surf down under control. And in a big storm with sufficient seaway, I'd always be sailing downwind, it's by far the safest thing to do with our kind of boat. That's the general recommendation from the Heavy Weather Sailing book too (which I recommend reading based on the questions you're interested in).

[1] I blogged about that storm here: https://sdfjkl.org/blog/2019-04-09-gale-at-sea/
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MagicalArmchair

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Re: Heavy weather sailing
« Reply #2 on: August 20 2021, 08:36 »
Thank Yngmar, your blog makes for a great read and gives faith in the boats. Were any of the weather reports right that day? Or was there no way, in hindsight, you could have foreseen the extra exciting wind?

You say to reef without turning into the wind - downwind I suppose that is less problematic, as you could pull the main in until its 'edge' on to the wind... however I did struggle reefing in 20 knots of wind  ::) (see separate thread here, posted on ybw as not really specific Bavaria (https://forums.ybw.com/index.php?threads/reefing-roller-furled-main.570876)). I did grease the whole system up (apart from the grease point right at the top, as I couldn't face going up the mast again - a job for this winter) , and it seemed very free on the mast itself, however, furling and unfurling I could never hope to do just by hand.

I don't have the gyroscope box, I am looking at the whole system again as on my last passage the dreaded "Drive Stopped" message came up again, so I suspect the clutch is on the way out.  :(

Re hatch boards, it would make sense to have some method of affixing them from inside the boat - as you rightly say, going out onto the deck in those conditions would not be wise.


Yngmar

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Re: Heavy weather sailing
« Reply #3 on: August 20 2021, 10:20 »
The forecast was for light airs and we expected to motor most of it, which is why we were snooping around for another anchorage at first. The whole thing was weird, it was blowing a gale but with clear blue sky and warm, dry air (thus all the problems with thick salt crusts on my sunglasses). Apparently this happens occasionally in the vicinity of Gibraltar.

The Meltemi in the Aegean is a bit like that - warm, ultra dry, especially if blowing over land, and can get quite strong. We've found forecasts often completely wrong in the Med - it's perhaps a too complex system to reliably model or there are still unknown factors or insufficient data.

Downwind reefing in strong wind, we do need to use the winches and work the sail (sheeting in, tensioning outhaul to reduce curvature at the mast slot and kicker fairly tight). If the wind pressure is too high, the sausage gets pulled against the inside of the mast slot too hard to turn, then it helps if you put some tension on the reefing loop and quickly ease the outhaul to momentarily relief pressure. It works, and with any system the most important part is not to leave it too late as it gets exponentially harder if you do!

Sorry to hear about the continuing autopilot issues.

I'm sure some clever mechanism for hatch board installation can be invented. Perhaps two U-bolts on one side (exterior) that engage in two prongs on the storm board and then a threaded rod on the opposing side with a wingnut that tensions it against a bar that goes across the inside. But who's got room to carry all that stuff and wants to stub their toes on the U-bolts all the time!  :kewl
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Mirror45184

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Re: Heavy weather sailing
« Reply #4 on: August 20 2021, 15:40 »
for hatch covers a simple board, single batten and bolt. the batten is turned like a toggle across the opening to clamp the board in place. rubber or rag between the board and the porthole frame will help to seal or just reduce the amount of water ingress. For the long skinny windows use two pieces of batten toggles to hold the board in place. This can be installed from outside or inside the boat.
Cheers
Mark Hutton
SV SYnergy
B40 Cruiser 2009