Author Topic: Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.  (Read 9948 times)

Sitesurfer

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Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.
« on: September 25 2018, 19:48 »
Hi folks, I'm looking for some peer review on the plan below - I'm looking to fit an Evo 4 unit into a 2002 B36.
I'm a little stuck on the heads/aft cabin routing, the rest of it seems to be quite straightforward.

I've shown 2 possible heads locations, slightly concerned about water from the shower getting into the ducting.
I'm also not 100% if the heater unit should be located inboard, but that would introduce another set of bends into the backbone duct.

I'd welcome any experience and perhaps photos from anyone who's done this or has a blown air heating system installed.

Sitesurfer

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Re: Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.
« Reply #1 on: September 25 2018, 21:14 »
A version two going port side, seems to be less angles in the duct runs.

Jeff Jones

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Re: Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.
« Reply #2 on: September 25 2018, 21:31 »
you second 'port layout' is very similar to the setup I have installed on B34 2cabin 2000, which is very close to same hull size as yours.

my Eberspacher is mounted near the transom in the deep locker (strb side), with the main hot air feed pipe (90mm) running down the centre of the boat next to the exhaust under the rear bunk turning to port in front of the cold water storage tank, then routed as per you version 2 drawing. works well.

my head outlet is in the wet hanging locker and is closable 60mm directional nozzle.

Also with version 1, are you house batteries under the strb seating?... it would be better to keep the heating duct away from the batteries and also the fridge compressor.. adding good quality duct insulation will really help get the best heat out of the system and not cause the lockers and contents to get warm.

I have a 4kw model and it gets quite toasty...

Sitesurfer

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Re: Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.
« Reply #3 on: September 25 2018, 21:39 »
Damn damn damn, the fridge is under the port locker exactly where I want to put the duct.
And yes the batteries are in the starboard locker...

Back to the drawing board. Very interested in where you placed the actual unit - am very tempted with the deep locker on the starboard side.

Sitesurfer

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Re: Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.
« Reply #4 on: September 25 2018, 21:47 »
you second 'port layout' is very similar to the setup I have installed on B34 2cabin 2000, which is very close to same hull size as yours.

my Eberspacher is mounted near the transom in the deep locker (strb side), with the main hot air feed pipe (90mm) running down the centre of the boat next to the exhaust under the rear bunk turning to port in front of the cold water storage tank, then routed as per you version 2 drawing. works well.


So is the heater unit fixed inboard? ie: on the wall locker to the centre of the boat rather than the water side?

Quote
my head outlet is in the wet hanging locker and is closable 60mm directional nozzle.

How do you get on with the door to the wet locker closed? I was considering this way but felt that the warmth would be lost when the family closed the door.

Quote
Also with version 1, are you house batteries under the strb seating?... it would be better to keep the heating duct away from the batteries and also the fridge compressor.. adding good quality duct insulation will really help get the best heat out of the system and not cause the lockers and contents to get warm.

Batteries starboard, and fridge compressor port. the compressor is bang on where I wanted the saloon vent. The kit comes with thermo ducting all throughout. I suppose I could place the vent forward of the compressor unit although I would be concerned about warming it up too much and I cant really see much point placing the vent anywhere else.

Jeff Jones

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Re: Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.
« Reply #5 on: September 25 2018, 21:53 »
there is still enough space to route the duct high up and along at the back of the seating lockers. my main cabin outlet is a 90mm swivel with direct-able louvers so I just point which way we need.. in reality its not an issue as the whole cabin warms up anyway

Jeff Jones

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Re: Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.
« Reply #6 on: September 25 2018, 22:03 »
re head wet locker.. ours is a open hanging area (no door) you can just see it in the last photo.

these photos are from when I first bought the boat, since then I have added duct insulation and also fresh air duct as the heat took air from the locker for both combustion and heating air...(not as recommended by eberstacher)

MarkTheBike

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Re: Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.
« Reply #7 on: September 26 2018, 11:03 »
Hi SiteSurfer
Like Jeff, I also have a B34/2001 with the same layout. I have a 4-port Eberspacher laid out like your version 2 (yes, runs are straighter) but with one difference - my unit is in the lazarette, bolted to the port-side stern bulkhead, behind the access panel in the aft cabin, and exhausting through the transom. I didn't install it there, that was the previous owner, but it makes sense in that the unit - apart from installation - doesn't need to be accessed freely; and personally, I wouldn't want it in the open in a locker that can have bulky, heavy things chucked in (e.g. kedges!). I also tend to use that gap into the lazarette for long brushes, gaffhooks, etc. and the heater would be vulnerable and get in the way. The only downside is that the pipe passes directly under the fridge but I have since stuck in more insulation so is less of a problem than it used to be. I'm off there today so will photo for you. Jeff is also correct in that the directional saloon outlet is very effective, even away from the compressor - mine is level with the table but still blasts hot air into the open area between the galley and chart table. All 4 outlets are directional and all, apart from the saloon, can be shut off.
M
ATB

Mark

Sitesurfer

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Re: Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.
« Reply #8 on: September 26 2018, 14:52 »
Ah brilliant stuff, the more photos the better please!
I'm particularly interested in the ducting runs, unit positioning and how the heads were plumbed in.

I've learnt so much in the last couple days - I'm a huge chunk further forward now.

Sitesurfer

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Re: Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.
« Reply #9 on: September 26 2018, 14:56 »
Hi SiteSurfer
Like Jeff, I also have a B34/2001 with the same layout. I have a 4-port Eberspacher laid out like your version 2 (yes, runs are straighter) but with one difference - my unit is in the lazarette, bolted to the port-side stern bulkhead, behind the access panel in the aft cabin, and exhausting through the transom.

OK I have questions, is the unit mounted transversely? Webasto recommends a fit that is in line with the forward of the boat unless only using the unit whilst at anchor / moored. And - do you get any blowback from the transom exhaust (its a much much easier place to fit it!) as opposed to one in the side of the hull?

artemis

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Re: Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.
« Reply #10 on: September 26 2018, 15:45 »
I've a BAV 34/2001 with a Eberspacher Airtronic's DL5 heater (bigger the better I say) can never be tooooo warm in the winter. Its in the stbd locker against the wet locker bulkhead then the ducting runs down the stbd std of the yacht.

Rgds
Mike
Artemis

Sitesurfer

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Re: Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.
« Reply #11 on: September 26 2018, 18:04 »
From most of the things I have found so far, it appears that the heater units are being fitted transversely.
Has anyone had an issue using them whilst moving?

Salty

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Re: Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.
« Reply #12 on: September 26 2018, 20:44 »
From most of the things I have found so far, it appears that the heater units are being fitted transversely.
Has anyone had an issue using them whilst moving?

Depends on what you mean by moving, during the season my boat spends much of its time on a swinging mooring where there can be a fair amount of movement from wind, weather and some inconsiderate ‘erberts who ignore the harbour rules requiring a speed of no more than dead slow while in the vicinity of the moorings. During those times my heater has performed as faultlessly as it has at all other times when in use, and that’s over the almost nine years I’ve had the boat. During that time I’ve not done anything by way of servicing the machine, an Ebberspacher, and I don’t suppose the boats previous owner, a charter firm, did anything either.
I’ve never run the heater while the boat was at sea, mainly because my crew and I were mostly outside in the cockpit area and dressed for whatever the weather was doing at the time, and so didn’t need being heated.
The Ebberspacher is mounted transversely within the lazarette, and is secured to the port aft cabin bulkhead (my boat, a B36 2002), has three sleeping cabins plus a main saloon and a forward port side heads compartment. The exhaust passes out through the hull port side a short distance more or less above the engine exhaust. The heater ducts, uninsulated when I bought the boat, but now mostly insulated with some stuff a seller referred to as “thinsulate,” but which I’m not so sure about, run forward just to port of the centreline and below the level the bed base in the aft port cabin. On reaching the vicinity of the engine compartment, there is a branch which supplies a closeable swivel outlet into the port aft cabin. The main duct also turns across to the starboard aft cabin where it supplies warm air to another branch serving that cabin. From there the main duct turns forward again but along the starboard side, to the main saloon where it serves a third and final outlet into the saloon. That outlet is at the bottom of the seat provided in way of the chart desk. All heater outlets have a directional and closeable fitting, but there are only three of them which means that there is no heater outlet in either the forward cabin or the heads compartment, but those areas warm quite quickly, even in the depths of a North Wales winter which rarely gets desperately cold on account of the Gulf Stream. Arguably I need a more powerful heater, and I’ve forgotten what the output capacity of the heater is, but as I said earlier it doesn’t take long to warm the boat sufficiently for it to be comfortable.
Wrapping the so called “thinsulate” around the main heater duct has served several purposes, initially it stops much of the heat loss to the lazarette and also to the under bunk areas of the two aft cabins, also conversely this has increased the temperature within the main cabin quite significantly. This has a
further benefit in that the heater doesn’t use quite so much diesel fuel as it might otherwise have done.
At sometime in the future I might be inclined to extend the heater ducting to the forward cabin and to the heads, but in all honesty, I don’t think it actually matters at the moment

Bav32

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Re: Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.
« Reply #13 on: September 27 2018, 09:50 »
Here is a picture how I did the installation last year with a heater with 3x60mm outlets. I have 4 outlets in the boat and one is not closable (the one into the saloon)

I chose the option A in the toilet because I need access to the valves trough the closet in the toilet. Works fine.
I placed the saloon outlet under the steps, because I didn't want to run the hot air near the fridge and at the same time I get "better" air-circulation in the boat.
I tried to go with the starboard side because of the fridge, but there is too much cables and too narrow in there. I therefore insulated the pipes really good.

One thing that I have noticed is that I probably should switch places with the under-the-step -outlet and the aft-cabin-outlet, so that the Y-joint is connected to the aft-cabin -pipe. The aft-cabin with the straight pipe gets really hot, really quickly.

tiger79

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Re: Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.
« Reply #14 on: September 27 2018, 15:46 »

I've shown 2 possible heads locations, slightly concerned about water from the shower getting into the ducting.


The hot air outlet in  my heads is in the shower area.  With a directional vent, and with the louvres pointing downwards slightly, there's no likelihood of water getting into the ducting.

Your second layout (port side) is certainly preferable.

My Webasto is fitted in the cavity under the back of the cockpit, so there's no chance of anything bashing against it.  The downside is that it's quite a wriggly job to get to it if needed.

Sitesurfer

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Re: Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.
« Reply #15 on: September 27 2018, 16:32 »
Loving the feedback, here's the current thinking after the peer review.
Some marvellous suggestions over the last few days - for which I am so grateful.

I like this version as it does several things:
  • Keeps the backbone simple and curvy (no tight bends)
  • Keeps the outlets close to the backbone for efficiency
  • Keeps the ducting away from the fridge/compressor better
  • I really really like the idea of the saloon vent by the engine - that is a great position
  • Shower heads outlet nice and simple (may need boxing in but that's nothing)
  • Webasto out of the way in the back of the boat, will need a support glassing in though (no biggie)
  • Simple exhaust and fresh air ducts (although the exhaust on the stb side may be preferable)

MarkTheBike

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Re: Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.
« Reply #16 on: September 30 2018, 19:49 »
Hi SiteSurfer
Herewith a couple of pics to add to the others, but an apology as they aren't very good and it is a bit cramped in the lazarette. The heater is mounted  transversely on a metal bracket, screwed into the transom bulkhead, above the panel on the port side (far away from the fuel tank). It doesn't look it but is really horizontal. Access is much easier than I remember, removing the panel in the aft cabin and just lying on the bunk with head and shoulders stuck through. I removed and reinstalled it not long after purchase a few years ago and there were no hassles. As others have said, they're mostly used when stopped but we bought Figaro back from Guernsey to Plymouth in December and had it running for the last 10 hrs, so being transverse didn't appear to be a problem. I think the outlet in the transom is neat and will never suffer from submersion, unlike the potential for an outlet near the exhaust. When parked, the stern is south-facing but it is only in the strongest southerlies that I get a slight occasional paraffin smell when it's starting up.

After looking at the plans on here, I checked and we don't have room to bring a pipe down the side of the engine to a central outlet (much as that appeals to me). However, as you can see, the saloon vent is a way down past the compressor but still blasts hot air easily into the open space and, as Salty and others have said, it warms the whole area very quickly.

Cheers - hope this helps.
ATB

Mark

Clivert

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Re: Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.
« Reply #17 on: September 30 2018, 22:54 »
We have a 3 cabin 2001 Bav34 and mounted our eberspacher heater in the space behind the starboard cabin.
Trunking runs past the calorifier with a branch going to the port cabin,an out let in the starboard cabin and then through under the starboard saloon seat with an outlet there and then on to the forwsrd cabin.
The only place without an outlet is the head,but then we don't encourage people to stay in there too long !
If you're likely to be anywhere near Port Solent give me a shout and I'll happily show you the installation.
Clive

Sitesurfer

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Re: Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.
« Reply #18 on: October 02 2018, 16:28 »
Brilliant stuff - thanks for the images too!

I was amazed (and shocked) how much space there was in the aft of the boat which is just empty space, even I (a well proportioned middle-aged bloke with too many years of McDonald's under his metaphorical groaning belt) can wriggle in and get to everything, so nice after the last boat where cutting oneself in half was de-rigor for any aft based maintenance jobs.

The full kit is now on its way and I'll document the whole install process.

nightowle

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Re: Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.
« Reply #19 on: October 03 2018, 06:51 »
Hi Sitesurfer,

Our '99 35E is a similar setup to Jeff's.  Eberspacher in the aft end of the port lazarette, though.  I believe his is forward. It is mounted transversely. Ducting runs along the port side to an outlet in the portside head cut just below the door under the sink.  The Admiral really likes having a warm head in winter.  The next outlet is at the front of the chart table seat, and believe it or not, the salon gets very toasty even though the flow of air is blocked somewhat by the chart table set up.  But, as we know, heat rises.  The ducting then runs further forward under the starboard settee past the batteries servicing the forward cabin.  The aft cabin is from a short branch into and through the bulkhead wall running lengthwise mid ship.  This install was done when the boat was first launched by a dealer in B.C. Canada.  The real bitch is access to the electrical panel of the unit.  I couldn't even reach it and you'd basically have to have a mirror to see what you're doing.  Coincidentally enough, I just had the authorized Espar dealer at the boat today tracking down with a fault reader, electrical connectors that were corroded.  Not an easy job vis a vis the access.  If you can install your unit with the electrical panel forward facing, it will be so much better.  Most professionals in my area favor the Webasto units, FWIW.  Wish I took pictures today, but maybe I can within the next week.  Good luck.
S/V In Deep - 1999 Bavaria 35E
Seattle, WA USA

Sitesurfer

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Re: Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.
« Reply #20 on: October 08 2018, 11:51 »
I started the installation on the weekend and discovered very quickly that the initial plan was a non-starter, the amount of room for the port run was waaay to small at the intersection in the aft cabin.

Back to the starboard run now - we have installed the ducting as far as the aft cabin and have negotiated the tortuous route behind the sink - more to come.

MarkTheBike

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Re: Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.
« Reply #21 on: October 10 2018, 11:52 »
... have negotiated the tortuous route behind the sink ...

helps keep the water warm  :)
ATB

Mark

Sitesurfer

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Re: Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.
« Reply #22 on: October 11 2018, 20:30 »
My back is killing me but I am victorious!
I have installed the ducting to the aft cabin, drilled the vent hole and installed.

The backbone continues past the fuel tank and t's off into the hanging locker (un lagged in there to provide heat for wet clothes) and then to a little heads vent.

Lagged all the way to the heads and will continue the run in the morning into the saloon and finally the fore cabin.

This has turned out to be way more time consuming than I had figured - but so satisfying :)

Sitesurfer

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Re: Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.
« Reply #23 on: October 15 2018, 12:49 »
Having now installed all the ducting to my satisfaction, and lagged it all and installed the outlets, I would like to share the route plan which was relevant to my yacht.

Points which may be of interest:

  • I exposed the ducting and ran it by the nav table seat (will cover with a nice mesh) to provide warmth of sorts to there specifically (and I couldn't route 90mm duct physically anywhere else because of 12V cable trunking)
  • I exposed a loop of 60mm duct to the floor of the wet locker to provide an airing cupboard type effect, will make a false mesh floor

I ran the 90mm backbone down the centre aft section because I wanted very little ducting in the locker itself, all the cabling and piping is running externally to the locker where possible and I will build a mesh cage around the air top to provide final protection.

When I finish completely I will photo and write up the whole thing, in case it helps anyone else.

Marchi

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Re: Heater Layout B36 - Peer review please.
« Reply #24 on: October 30 2019, 16:14 »
Hi everybody!
Here is my project "plan" and fotos of an old man learning things from scratch.  ::)
The airflow plan is like recomended by webasto. As less as posibble hard curves where hot air could lost temp and as much as possible equivalent air intake and air outflow at the heather, not reducing diametter at the heater but as late as possible.
25 working hours, January 2019. While working I have thoughts and questioning myself if I need heater at all.  ;D :P
Sorry I'm not confortable with language so much, so fotos are best I can contirubute to community.
Of course I'm willing to answer questions and receive critics etc.
Have a nice winter sailing time! Here in Europe (Slovenia) on Adriatic sea, air is 15°C, sea 19°C. ;)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/y57PxTjLtR9zamDPA
https://youtu.be/GoyhGjb_29A

Attaching Webasto Install Instructions if someone will find it usefull. I did.