Author Topic: Crazed Portlights and Hatches  (Read 38897 times)

ancanc

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Re: Crazed Portlights and Hatches
« Reply #50 on: October 15 2019, 11:56 »
Hi, Salty,

i have the same "crazed portlights" problem, i have to change 10 Lewmar Portlights on my bavaria 44 2003. I would like to ask you some questions:
- "Lewmar have modified the port light hinges and catches such that those fitted to new replacement acrylics will not fit the old aluminium hinge supports." Do you know when it was changed? My acrylics have the numbers A015 (small) and A016 (long).
- "Four portlight acrylic blanks were ordered from the plastics firm." - approx. how much did you pay for the acryllics?

You wrote in one of your posts, that the german SVB had good prices, unfortunately not anymore, they have just doubled the price for the long acrylic i would need, it costs now EUR 285, some month ago was about EUR 140...

Regards: Andras



Salty

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Re: Crazed Portlights and Hatches
« Reply #51 on: October 15 2019, 20:32 »
Hi Andras and welcome to the forum.

The long portlights on my Bavaria 36 built in 2002 carry the number A081620H2, and so it is most likely they are a different size from yours which carry a different number. Essentially the acrylic used for my long portlights measures 634mm long by 131mm across the opening width but excluding the horns used for securing the catches and hinges. If you include those horns, then the measurement goes up to a maximum of 159mm.

The cost for each portlight cut to shape and including the machined out areas where the hinges and catches were to fit was approximately £70 each. The overall thickness of the acrylic used for the replacement portlights was slightly more than that used in the original Portlights, but that thickness was not critical whereas the thickness of the acrylic in the areas where the hinges and catches were to fit was critical in order to ensure that the overall thickness measured from the outside surface of the portlight to the innermost point in way of the hinge pins was no more than 27mm after assembly and glueing.

A further point in regard to the acrylic sheet material they used to provide my portlights and skylights is that the acrylic was not tinted at all. I don’t know how much more my supplier might want to charge for a tinted acrylic, but I can imagine they would want to recover their cost for the size of plastic sheet they would have to buy in to provide the required tint on the number of portlights required.

If your portlights are somewhat similar in size to mine, and if you were happy to accept clear non tinted acrylic, then I would anticipate my supplier could provide you with portlights at a similar price to that which I paid, and that would allow you to continue to use your existing aluminium brackets without the need to remove the brackets from the aluminium portlight frame.

In regard to the date when Lewmar changed over from the old size fittings to the new size, I’m sorry, but I don’t know or cannot recall when that happened. I suspect however that it was several years after both your boat and mine were built.

I gather that you and your boat are based in Hungary, so that if you wanted to send your portlights over here for my supplier to manufacture, there would be some postal and other charges involved.

ancanc

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Re: Crazed Portlights and Hatches
« Reply #52 on: October 15 2019, 22:37 »
Hi Salty,
and thanks for the fast reply.
I made a mistake in the acrylic numbers, they are the same as yours... you can see them on my attached pictures. A0815 and A0816 plus some numbers - they somehow represent the manufacturing date according to Lewmar.
You are right, my boat lies in Hungary on the lake Balaton but i am living in Düsseldorf/Germany.
Last summer i tried to sand and polish one portlight acrylic, because i thought that the "scratches" were only on the outer surface of the acrylic and they could be removed or minimized. If you take one old acrylic in your hand and you look through while moving it, it seems that there is a small fraction of the thickness  with the scratches and the bigger part to the inner side is not affected... All i achieved was that i now have one matt acrylic.. i moved it to the toilet and said to my wife : i wanted it so, it helps privacy... I am still not really convinced that is not the case, maybe one should sand off more material (0.1 - 0.2 mm).     
The fresh water of the lake is helping against corrosion issues - i tightened a few hinges and all screws were loose and not corroded, so if needed i could change the required parts. Not cheap, 8 long (á EUR 240) and 2 short (á EUR 170) acrylic plus 10 assembly kits (á EUR 65) (the inner ones are in great shape...)
I have fabricated some blinds for the portlights too, evolved the "design" for three years..  It seems to be reliable now. I cut out 630x130 mm from a white carrier sheet (0,15mm thick) in the form of the acrylic, then i apply a self-adhesive also very thin reflecting layer onto it (it looks from the outside like bad quality mirror) Theese materials are used for making billboards.  Usually if i am on the boat i keep them off the acrylic but if i leave the boat i apply theese "blinds" onto the acrylics: open the portlight, make the blind a bit wet with a sponge, put it on the acrylic and smooth it out. The water makes it stick to the acrylic so i can close the portlight. The whole blind is about 0.2-0.25 mm thin so it is not making the portlights to leak at all. I will do some pictures next weekend - maybe some of the forum members are interested. I have blinds on the hatches too, but this can be done easily. This helps me keep the heat (and UV) out of the boat. Sometimes, when it is really hot i let the blinds on the acrylic on the sunny side.
To be honest i find theese portlight acrylics are a very bad "certificate" for Lewmar, on my earlier 1999 Bav 34 the Gebo portlights and hatches are still in a very good shape.... Lewmar probably knows the problem, but instead of helping us with "moderate" prices for the parts - they make a big business out of it.
Andras

ancanc

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Re: Crazed Portlights and Hatches
« Reply #53 on: October 22 2019, 16:58 »
Hi Salty,

i measured the thickness of the acrylic+hinge, a have a reading of 27mm too. What is the thickness of your original and new acrylic itself?
I made some pictures of the "blinds" or covers for the portlights and the hatches.
These covers protect the acrylics, keep the temperature lower inside the boat and prevent the furniture from bleaching.
Regards:
Andras

Salty

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Re: Crazed Portlights and Hatches
« Reply #54 on: October 22 2019, 19:45 »
Hi Salty,

i measured the thickness of the acrylic+hinge, a have a reading of 27mm too. What is the thickness of your original and new acrylic itself?

The original portlight acrylic thickness was 8.5mm. I don’t recall the thickness of the two Lewmar replacement portlights that I bought at an overall cost close to £200 each, and cannot confirm from memory whether they were any thicker than the original portlights. The difference between the original portlights and the Lewmar replacements was noticeable across the dimension of the combined portlight and hinge measurement which had increased from 27mm to 29mm. This was partly due to Lewmar changing the hinge pin thickness from 4mm to 5mm and then increasing the size of the hinge to accommodate the thicker hinge pin.
In your first photo, which I have borrowed for the purpose of this explanation and part of which is shown below, and of which the hinge bracket and it’s securing screw I have marked with a yellow arrow. Well it was these brackets that Lewmar had lengthened to accommodate the increased dimensions of the new hinges and new catches, and it was the securing screw on each bracket and also covered by the yellow arrow, that were so difficult to undo. With you’re boat on a fresh water lake, it is possible that the screws and portlight aluminium frames may not be as badly affected by corrosion as are those boats kept in a salt water environment.

The replacement acrylics that I purchased from a plastics firm were about one millimetre thicker than that originally supplied by Lewmar, but the acrylic thickness is not critical if the area where the hinges and catches fit has been machined out to ensure that the overall measurement between the outer side of the acrylic to the innermost point on the hinge or catch is maintained at 27mm.

In regard to the blinds or covers you have made, I’m sure that anything you do to protect the acrylic from UV light from the sun will help to some extent to prevent any further crazing of the acrylic.
In particular I like the covers you have made for the companionway hatch and door, as much as anything I’m sure that in cold weather it would help to retain some of the heat from your heater within the cabin rather than allowing it to go out and contribute towards global warming no matter how small that contribution may amount to.

ancanc

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Re: Crazed Portlights and Hatches
« Reply #55 on: October 23 2019, 17:27 »
Hi Salty,
i measured today my acrylic (the original one), it is exactly 8mm thick. That is funny, i tought Lewmar was using some special-sized acrylic to make it (almost) impossile to change the portlights with non-original ones. But (at least on my boat) they are made of 8mm acrylic.
In your DIY-guide you wrote, that the newly made acrylic had a different thickness than the original one. This part i could not really follow, how did you make the acrylic thinner underneath the glued parts? The surface still has to be flat... Or was the newly manufactured acrylic thinner and you had to make it thicker?
Regards:
Andras

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Re: Crazed Portlights and Hatches
« Reply #56 on: October 23 2019, 17:45 »
We put hatch covers on every time we leave the boat.
Makes a big difference over time

Salty

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Re: Crazed Portlights and Hatches
« Reply #57 on: October 23 2019, 20:19 »
Hi Salty,
.
.
In your DIY-guide you wrote, that the newly made acrylic had a different thickness than the original one. This part i could not really follow, how did you make the acrylic thinner underneath the glued parts? The surface still has to be flat... Or was the newly manufactured acrylic thinner and you had to make it thicker?
Regards:
Andras

Hi Andras,

Hopefully the following photos should show the situation regarding the thickness of the acrylic sheet in way of where the hinges or catches are attached to the acrylic.

The first picture shows an area recessed into the acrylic sheet to ensure that the overal dimension from the outside of the portlight to the innermost point on either the hinges or the catches amounts to as near as possible to 27mm(Note, this is as supplied by Lewmar, but is not normally visible, until in my case after the hinges or catches were removed). The thickness of the acrylic in this recessed area is critical to ensure that after glueing the replaced hinges, that your 27mm limit is maintained. How much acrylic is machined out to form that recess will depend entirely upon the thickness of the acrylic that your supplier has in stock or can buy in on the one hand, and upon how generously you apply the adhesive on the other. The adhesive I have suggested, Methacrylate MA300 does not require lots of it to be applied, so keep it thin.

The second picture shows the under side of a hinge, and the catches are more or less identical in appearance. Note that the hinges and catches have a perimeter moulding which will engage with the horns on the upper and lower edges of the portlight, and this helps to ensure that they fit into the exact right places on the replacement portlight acrylic.

The third picture below shows a hinge in process of being fitted,
 
And the fourth picture shows the same hinge fully pushed into position within the recessed area.

Note, so long as the thickness of the recessed area is calculated properly so that your 27mm measurement referred to earlier is maintained, the overall thickness of the acrylic sheet in use is to a large extent irrelevant because there is nothing that bears directly against the inner surface of each portlight. The recessed areas were cut out by the supplier of the acrylic portlight replacements using their computer controlled machinery to make exactly matching recesses to that shown in the first photo below

I hope the foregoing has provided you with the answers to your questions.


ancanc

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Re: Crazed Portlights and Hatches
« Reply #58 on: October 23 2019, 23:21 »
Hi Salty,
and thanks for the clarification! I see now, this is not an easy task to manufacture the new acrylics... The recessed areas are not visible while the plastic parts are in place, i thought the acrylics are simply flat.
I am going to use the current portlights until i gather up some courage and start replacing them....
Thanks again,
Regards:
Andras

Salty

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Re: Crazed Portlights and Hatches
« Reply #59 on: October 24 2019, 02:35 »
Yes, that’s the thing, it takes a bit of courage to start taking them apart knowing that if you make a mistake, that it will cost you quite a lot of money.

I was fortunate in a way because someone, who had their boat ashore over winter in the boatyard where mine also spends the winter months, had replaced a whole deck hatch with a new one and had discarded the original complete with its entire aluminium frame. The normally transparent acrylic within the opening frame was badly crazed, but I saw this as something that I could use to practice dismantling before having a go at the hatches on my own boat. Taking the old discarded hatch apart proved reasonably easy, and that gave me the confidence to look at changing my own deck hatches.

In regard to the portlights, I purchased two new sets of brand new Lewmar portlight lenses, only to discover they would not fit my existing portlight frames because of the changes Lewmar had made to the hinge arrangements. I had to go back to the supplier and buy a set of brackets and hinge bolts etc., in order to fit the new lenses. Removing the original brackets was difficult, but I was lucky, and despite the difficulties I was able to remove each of the securing screws for the brackets on the two forward portlights within the main cabin. But I was deeply disappointed when trying to tackle the remaining four large portlights on my boat, because the securing screws, like the one marked with an arrow in an earlier reply to you, were not going to come out easily.

Being able to replace the two forward portlights in the main cabin left me with two old but intact and thoroughly crazed portlight lenses that I could have a go at trying to dismantle and remove the plastic hinges and catches. After a couple of mistakes I found that I could remove those plastic parts and then began looking at how to stick them back on and also where to get the acrylic lenses made up locally. I was lucky on both counts in that I found a compatible and superbly strong adhesive, and a plastics manufacturer with the right kind of machinery to be able to accurately cut out new lenses Including machining out those recessed areas. The rest, as they say, is now history !!

Also, although I now have two slightly tinted original Lewmar replacement portlights and two non tinted locally made portlights within the main cabin on my boat, up to now no one visiting my boat has spotted the difference. Indeed, in all honesty and despite that I know there is a difference, I’m hard pushed to notice it myself.

IslandAlchemy

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Re: Crazed Portlights and Hatches
« Reply #60 on: October 29 2019, 09:18 »
I've decided that I'm going to get new acrylics made and have them fixed, as I never open them anyway, so I shall just glue them in.

Salty

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Re: Crazed Portlights and Hatches
« Reply #61 on: October 30 2019, 05:33 »
For those of you that read through my original postings on this subject, you may remember that I mentioned in regard to covering the acrylics with plastic film to prevent possible UV damage from sunlight, and that the window tinting firm had initially advised that acrylic gave off tiny quantities of gas which until then the ordinary films could not cope with. Well today I read an article posted on the BBC News App about some research carried out by Dr Sarah Jeanne Royer. In her research it seems that most, if not all plastics give off methane and other ozone depleting gasses.

In her article the following statement was found
“What's causing these emissions?
In short it's the Sun. Solar radiation acts on the surface of plastic waste. As it breaks down, it becomes cracked and pitted, these defects increase the surface area of plastic available.”

At the time she was only looking into what was happening with waste plastics, but my contention is that it must be happening to all plastics, and starting from the moment of manufacture.

Perhaps we should start to insist on Portlights and Hatches being made from suitably toughened glass which won’t craze and won’t give off ozone depleting gasses, but then isn’t the whole boat hull made from plastic?  🤢

Having said all that Salty, from the posts here the Gebo hatches are not crazing to any significant degree while the Lewmar ones appear to be frosted after only a few years.  That points to a variable in the materials used by the two companies.  No need for glass, just Gebo acrylic.  My hatches ar 18 years old and have little crazing.

My point in the posting above about using glass, was in regard to global warming due to the emissions being given off plastics.

In regard to the quality of the acrylic being used, I whole heartedly agree, a friend has a Dufour 41 slightly older than my boat and his acrylics are in excellent condition. But in regard to using Gebo acrylics instead of Lewmar, unfortunately it’s not much help if the sizes and fittings are different which I suspect they are. If your boat is already fitted with Gebo then it’s great as you probably won’t ever have to change them, but the Lewmar stuff being produced in the early 2000s was crap. Indeed a neighbour purchasing a brand new  Beneteau at that time had all his acrylics replaced under warranty because of almost instant crazing.

Jeffatoms

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Re: Crazed Portlights and Hatches
« Reply #62 on: February 09 2020, 17:55 »
Thanks to all for this very thoughtful thread.  This is also on our list, maybe in 2020 after the saildrive fiasco is resolved.

I've searched without success for Gebo replacement lenses or even entirely new portlights with no success.  My new plan is to cash in on my "mate rate" to have both tempered glass and acrylic lenses cut on a water jet table.  I'll need to extract on the get a *.dfw file.

Can anyone tell me the thickness of the Gebo portlight lenses on a Bav 38 Ocean.  A bonus would be if someone has an accurate electronic drawing of the portlights in question... I know that's a lot but I am an optimist.

Thanks in advance!
Jeff
SV Zephyrus

Salty

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Re: Crazed Portlights and Hatches
« Reply #63 on: November 04 2020, 05:35 »
Having an electronic drawing of the Portlight or Hatch lense that you want to replace would be helpful, but I dont have either the facility or the know how to produce such a drawing. So where it came to getting a replacement lense made at my local acrylic sign maker or workshop, I took them an original for them to copy. This meant taking a hatch or portlight from my boat to their workshop and basically saying to them “Please Sir, can you make me another one of these?”  That however left me with a problem of what to do with the open hole in my boat where the hatch or portlight, now being used as a template, had come from. So I cut a piece of thick plywood to use as a temporary cover. This cover was placed over the outside of the hatch or portlight from where the lense had been removed, and was secured in place using a long bolt or two through the plywood, through the now open hatch or portlight and through a thick piece of wood placed on the inside of the hatch or portlight. The bolt was then tightened and fitted with a second nut tightened up against the first to make things more difficult for any light fingered soul who might wish enter the boat while I was away. Lastly the area was covered with a heavy plastic sheet that was secured in place to keep out any rain.  This was done while my boat was onshore over the winter months, so Mr Lightfingers also had a problem of how to get onboard because the ladder I used was carefully laid out under the boat where it was chained and padlocked to the boat cradle supports.

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Re: Crazed Portlights and Hatches
« Reply #64 on: November 04 2020, 07:37 »
If you happy not to have opening windows, I have 4 lenses left from when I had a load made up to replace the lenses in my windows.

They are 10mm thick and I am selling them for £160 (for all 4) including all the fixings you need and some fitting instructions that I put together.

This will save you a small fortune over buying Lewmar replacements.

aquapore

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Re: Crazed Portlights and Hatches
« Reply #65 on: January 25 2021, 05:54 »
Replacement of crazed port lights

IslandAlchemy suggested need to electronic drawing of portlight for manufacture new ones.

I am happy to supply such a drawing with a file that can be used by a plastics jobbing shop with 3D NC router to manufacture new ones.

All I need is a photo copy of an original plastic 1:1 scale for outline an the depths of any rebates. Attach photo copy as PDF with scale 100%.

Regards

Robert Wechsler
Aquapore

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Re: Crazed Portlights and Hatches
« Reply #66 on: January 25 2021, 09:34 »
Replacement of crazed port lights

IslandAlchemy suggested need to electronic drawing of portlight for manufacture new ones.

I am happy to supply such a drawing with a file that can be used by a plastics jobbing shop with 3D NC router to manufacture new ones.

All I need is a photo copy of an original plastic 1:1 scale for outline an the depths of any rebates. Attach photo copy as PDF with scale 100%.

Regards

Robert Wechsler
Aquapore

It's all done.  I took measurements and designed a fixed replacement and then had a load of them made (I had to buy a whole sheet of acrylic, so has 24 lenses made out of it).  I got them made from 10mm thick actylic, so they are thicker than the originals.

I have replaced all my windows and have supplied the spare ones to 3 other boat owners, who have also now replaced their windows (one being Salty Lass, if you look them up on YouTube, they did a video on it last month).

The lenses cost just under £40 each including all the screws and caps, so less than 1/4 of the price of the Lewmar replacements.

If others are interested in having some, I can get another sheet cut, but would need enough buyers to get to 24 units.

Attached are a couple of photos of the new windows fitted.

If anyone is interested, PM me.

Salty

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Re: Crazed Portlights and Hatches
« Reply #67 on: January 25 2021, 13:56 »
Well done Island Alchemy, this just shows what can be done if boat owners have a mind to do a job where the original suppliers want to hold us all to ransom.

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Re: Crazed Portlights and Hatches
« Reply #68 on: February 01 2021, 11:01 »
I have had someone ask me if I can get any more of these.  I have explained that I would have to get another whole sheet done (24 windows), so would need a few people wanting them to make it viable.

If anyone out there is interested, let me know, and if we can get enough units required together, I am happy to get another sheet cut and supply the kits to others.

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Re: Crazed Portlights and Hatches
« Reply #69 on: April 06 2022, 07:32 »
Hi Salty and all other Bavaria-friends!
Inspired by the method originally posted by Salty I made 9 new portlight lenses for my Beneteau Oceanis 411. What I thought was the hardest things to figure out was the removal of the fittings and what glue to use, and here I found the answers! And other great tips.  THANK YOU!

I made a film of my project, which also included the routing of the lenses, I hope that can add some inspiration on doing this on your own:
https://youtu.be/U9taRDfnJIY

Regards,
Jakob

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Re: Crazed Portlights and Hatches
« Reply #70 on: April 06 2022, 10:13 »
Well done, brilliant job, just shows how bad lewmar are for not owning their responsibility for poor product they put in the market, the answer is dont  buy Lewmar products.

Well done again.

Odysseus
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Re: Crazed Portlights and Hatches
« Reply #71 on: April 08 2022, 11:18 »
Hello Bavaria Owners!
I warm up this thread because all my portlights and hatches are badly crazed and I want to change them. I have a Bavaria 40 from 2002 with Lewmar portlights and hatches. Outline measurement is 690x188mm for the portlights and 556x556 / 556x276 for the hatches. If anyone could give my old acrylics (any condition) as samples for reproduction I would be very grateful :). Or maybe someone can provide CAD files in any format. I could give these files to a local company for reproduction. My boat lies in Greece and I live in Austria, so I cannot use my own as samples.
Regards, Peter
Bavaria 40 <Novara>

Ailatan

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Re: Crazed Portlights and Hatches
« Reply #72 on: April 09 2022, 23:46 »
I am glad that this thread has been refloated because I want to thank Salty for showing us the way to solve this problem that was driving me mad.
He also answered my doubts that I sent him through p.m.
All in all it has been a very very hard job because my B 44 has 8 long portholes, 4 small portholes, 3 big hatches an 4 small hatches and all of them were crazed. If I had bought all that in SVB I would have got the title of "client of the year".
Unfortunately the local company that cut the acrilyc doesn't want to give me the drawings.
After fixing the acrilycs I made the covers to try to delay the process as much as possible. I will put some pictures

p_schurli

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Re: Crazed Portlights and Hatches
« Reply #73 on: April 11 2022, 15:49 »
Great job Ailatan!
You have got tinted glass which is great in sunny Greece!
Is there a possibility that I place a order at your local company? This would be really great. Or do you have some of your old acrylics with I could use as samples?
I have changed the rubber sealing of my two big hatches. On the first hatch it was very hard to separate the aluminium frame. On the second one it was easy because I sprayed MOS2 onto the connectors and let it work for some days.
Kind regards, Peter
Bavaria 40 <Novara>

Ailatan

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Re: Crazed Portlights and Hatches
« Reply #74 on: April 12 2022, 15:11 »
Hi Peter, I sent you a p.m.